87: Dancing with Trauma and Our Journey Towards Healing with Ronika Merl

Rosie (00:46)

Welcome back to the Pursuit of Freedom podcast. Joining us today is Ronika Merle. Ronika, did I get that right? I didn't even check how to pronounce your name. I did. Beautiful.

Ronika Merl (00:55)

Yeah, that's right, it's Ronika. It's

Ronika like Monica. It's very, yeah.

Rosie (01:00)

Ronika like Monica. Love it.

Now, often I do a little spiel at the beginning and try to convince people why to listen. Here's the highlights of this person. And lately I've just been going, why am I doing this? It just feels really icky, if you know what I mean. And I am sick of playing into that.

Ronika Merl (01:24)

Thank you.

Does it feel like a sales pitch to you? Does it feel like you're trying to make the person you're talking to, like you're trying to sell the conversation as something extraordinary when in reality these are just supposed to be connections between humans?

Rosie (01:47)

Yeah, that resonates. It is meant to be authentic connection, but then what gets in my head is, well, the gurus say, you you need a hook. You gotta give people a reason to hang around. And I'm like, isn't it reason enough that I think they're an awesome person? Like, come on.

Ronika Merl (02:02)

Yeah, yeah,

It's like, I relate to this so, much with regards to like the film industry and storytelling. I'm like, I wanna tell this story because I wanna tell the story. Why is 99 % of my work to try and sell the story? Which I don't mind, it's a part of life. Like, it's just, you know, I understand the game and we're all in the game and we're all playing the game. I get it, I understand, I'm not complaining.

Rosie (02:12)

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (02:32)

But like sometimes I wish I could just be like, this is a really interesting story. And the fact that it's interesting to me means that it's interesting to like hundreds of thousands, not millions of people out there because there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people who are exactly like me. I know this. So why am I trying to sell this thing? I want to wrap it up. And I'm literally like, I'm working on a script right now and I'm working on the sales pitch and I'm like.

Rosie (02:48)

Mm-hmm.

You

Mmm

Ronika Merl (03:00)

It's just a

good story. Just believe me. Just believe me. I don't have to go through the selling process. But yeah, so I totally, I completely agree. Yeah.

Rosie (03:03)

Yeah! Damn straight!

I'm glad you,

I'm glad you get it. I was sitting down last night and I was just like, this feels really fake. Like I was pulling together this thing cause you know, that's probably the only thing I semi script for an episode, this beginning bit, but I really, I'm, I'm changing things. So I'm, I'm curious. I want you to answer this in a couple of ways. The first, the first way is just a surface level, typical way that society expects, right?

So let's pretend you're at a networking event. Maybe you're talking with people in the film industry. don't know, whoever you talk to in this space. And someone comes up, you don't know them, go, what do you do?

Ronika Merl (03:53)

Oh my god. I write screenplays. I write books. My main kind of job is screenplay writing, I suppose. I have a reasonably okay CV. I've worked with some really, really interesting people over the years, is a blessing and great. I've worked all over Europe, mainly in the UK and Ireland.

Rosie (03:55)

You

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (04:23)

I've had some work in France. And aside from that, I do a lot of work with regards to people who have come through domestic violence situations and people who have come through sexual abuse situations. So that's kind of my activism side. I'm a mom. I live in Dublin. I have...

Rosie (04:37)

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (04:53)

My life is anything but boring. I'm always kind of very careful where specifically I go into the trauma down where I'm just like in polite conversation of like, yeah, no, I've had quite a lot of actually.

Rosie (04:57)

Yeah

god, yeah.

Ronika Merl (05:16)

I was like, okay, so recently I was actually asked this question recently just to give a quick rundown of my life and I was like, well, it's gonna take more than like, it's gonna be a minute, but that's the truth for everybody. it's, you know, the deeper you dig for anybody really, everybody lives an extraordinary life, anybody and everybody is extraordinary. So.

Rosie (05:28)

Yeah... Yeah...

Hmm.

Hmm...

Hmm...

Ronika Merl (05:45)

Like we were saying in the beginning, I find it quite hard to summarize everything there is to know about me in a few sentences. But yeah.

Rosie (05:53)

I agree.

I struggle with that too. I love your answer to the question was actually a lot less boring than I was hoping in a way, because most people, there's just this, there's this elevator pitch, right? And I love that you didn't give me that. I actually really love that.

Ronika Merl (06:10)

Yeah,

actually once once I was actually at a networking event and I was so high how what do you do? I was like just like Google is a thing just Google me and then they did and I was like That's all you need to know like I am so out there anyway, like I'm so like literally my worst

Rosie (06:35)

Mm-hmm.

Ronika Merl (06:39)

you know, my worst traumas are available to read and listen to on the internet because that's the point of everything I do is this, because I'm a communicator in that way. I'm like, I have literally talked for actual hours about everything that I am, everything that makes me me, everything I've done, everything I will do. So I'm like, if you really want to, you just Google me. But that doesn't like...

Rosie (06:52)

Hmm

Ronika Merl (07:09)

So I want to differentiate here. So that's the answer for like the public or if it's like if it's like somebody who's just kind of People who people who actually come to me needing to talk. those people get a different answer right? Like those get a different answer if somebody comes to me and they have experienced something that they don't really

Rosie (07:12)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's hear it.

Ronika Merl (07:35)

And that's happened all the time and that's why I'm here and that's why I do the work that I do. And they come to me with like, I've experienced something that I'm not sure who to communicate with or what to do or something's happening and I don't know where to go. those people get a different answer. They get an answer that comes from a very, very deep place and from a place of like, you know, love and care.

Rosie (07:49)

Mm-mm.

Hmm.

Ronika Merl (08:05)

So, yeah, it's so fascinating. Like all these different facets that we all kind of carry within ourselves. I'm always so happy and blessed when I get to witness. Bless you. you're sneezing. Another sneeze. There we go. But yeah, I'm always so fascinated about...

Rosie (08:15)

Mm-mm.

Yep, I never sneeze just once. my gosh, thank you.

Ronika Merl (08:35)

about these different layers that we get to experience with other people. So, yeah, it's good.

Rosie (08:41)

Mmm.

Okay. So we've done the networking side of things and I gather that you don't really like that sort of setting. The answer is go Google me. I've got better things to do with my time than you.

Ronika Merl (08:55)

Yeah, it is actually, yeah. Boston said that, yeah.

Rosie (09:02)

What if, you know you meet some people and they're just not into chit chat. So what if, I don't know, maybe we met, right? We've met somewhere and I've just gone, Ronika, who are you? Who are you? What lights you up?

Ronika Merl (09:07)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm, I like that more. I love that more. Who am I? I think actually my job description of storyteller is quite apt. It fits actually quite well. Not only is storytelling my living, I create fiction for a living.

Rosie (09:23)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (09:50)

But fiction is truer than most reality. think fiction is reality in shiny clothes that make us see truth. So storytelling and explaining the world, I think that's who I am. That's who I've always wanted to be and that's who I am striving still to become better at.

Rosie (10:18)

Mm.

Ronika Merl (10:20)

I hope if there is such a thing as legacy then I hope that that will be it, that I've told a few stories that made people see a little bit more sense in the cruelty that is the world. So yeah, that's who I am. I tell stories so that people feel better or so that people can understand the world a little bit better. That's who I am.

Rosie (10:48)

Hmm.

Hmm. Something you said, I'm going to get the words wrong so you can correct me. You said fiction is, was it reality dressed up in shiny clothes? Something that-

Ronika Merl (11:00)

Yeah, fiction is reality dressed

up in shiny clothes that make us see the truth. So yeah, because because I'm gonna get so passionate about this. I'm gonna just explode here. Because storytelling is the thing. Telling each other stories and whatever form that story takes, whether it's a dance, whether it's music, all of those things are elements of storytelling, right? Every artistic expression that has ever existed is

Rosie (11:04)

Yeah, like-

Let's do it. Yeah.

Mm-mm.

Ronika Merl (11:29)

at its core an attempt to tell a story. And we would not be human without that. Humanity began. The first spark, that Promethean moment of inner fire that was awakened within us happened because one of us stood up by the fire and started telling a story, started speaking.

Rosie (11:37)

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (11:56)

That was the moment humanity became humanity. It is so quintessentially human. So when we look at artistic expression, when we look at art, it is the celebration of humanity at its very core. You cannot be a human without celebrating art, without experiencing art every single day. And storytelling is within that. So...

Every time I open my laptop in the morning to write something I celebrate what it is to be human. Every time you look at an ad you do that very holy thing. It doesn't feel holy anymore. It doesn't feel like a ritual. It doesn't feel like you're partaking in the quintessential essence of what humanity is every time you look at a poster that's been designed well.

on the subway, right? You don't feel like you're partaking in the ancient ritual of cave painting. You are, actually. That's what it's come to, right? This is what the current expression of humanity and the kind of artistic expression of who we are is. This is culture, right? So I get very kind of...

Rosie (12:53)

Yeah.

Hmm

Ronika Merl (13:18)

professorial about these things and passionate about these things because it's at the core of what I do but also I love to kind of remind myself of the fact that every time I walk past some graffiti humanity has taken place. A human has been here, right? And has expressed themselves.

So that's quite a cause for celebration every single day, I think.

Rosie (13:52)

Mmm.

Where did this passion for storytelling, art, creating, where did this come from? Like, were you born with this or did it, where did it come from?

Ronika Merl (14:02)

And.

I think so. So I have quite the interesting childhood. So I was born into an indigenous mountain tribe in India in the Himalayas. it was quite like it was quite 15th century. So I was born in a house made of clay with like no electricity and no running water, no toilet facilities, you know, next to the goat.

Rosie (14:20)

Mm.

you

Ronika Merl (14:35)

So, and you know, our days consisted of, you know, looking after the livestock and climbing the Himalayas to cut grass. So my mom was quite the hippie. She was a rich, like she was a rich girl from Austria and she followed the call of the drugs and somehow found herself in this like tiny little village in the Himalayas.

Rosie (14:44)

Hmm.

Ronika Merl (15:06)

started this with my dad, started this like little hippie commune thing in like a gorge above a waterfall. It still exists, it's still around. My dad doesn't own it anymore, but it's still around. And like lots of hippies kind of just, and I'm not disparaging hippies here. you know, all of us are wonderful people. And, you know,

Rosie (15:21)

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (15:32)

they did all their drugs and painted and sang and danced and kind of did that very, very ancient celebration of humanity of like just sitting together on the fire and telling each other stories while under the influence of various herbal influences, which is fine, which is, know, obviously as a young child, it wasn't so much fun and my parents were quite horrendous.

Rosie (15:51)

Yeah.

Ronika Merl (16:02)

to me. But art was always around me. My mother's side is quite an artistic family. Both my aunties are artists, a cousin is an artist. I'm obviously an artist. So the family has always been quite artistic. So yeah, was pretty much born with it and born into it as well. So I don't think I really ever really had a choice. I've done

Rosie (16:04)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (16:32)

I've

done the kind of normal life thing of like having a corporate job and you know raising my kids in suburbia and you know I've done all that and it's fine and I've lived that life and I was I never regretted it but I've always been kind of coming back to the more this kind of lifestyle of like pursuing something that is a little bit

Rosie (16:38)

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (17:01)

closer to the edge and a little bit closer to the sky, I think. I do love flying ever so much. I, you know, I love the fact that I am able to sculpt wings every once in a while. So yeah.

Rosie (17:04)

Yeah.

What about, I mean, we have to talk about trauma and healing, right? I feel like this is just like, this is compulsory shit.

Ronika Merl (17:30)

Yeah, it always is with me.

Rosie (17:35)

Not even specifically you, I feel like we've all...

We've all been through some sort of trauma. And I think the danger is when we start comparing our experiences with someone else, we go, well, mine's not trauma because look at what they went through. So I think.

Ronika Merl (17:48)

my god, yeah,

I hate that so much. Yeah, you can drown. You can drown in 10 inches of water. Did you know that you can drown in like an inch of water? So how dare you? How dare you judge the person who drowned in like an inch of water? And how dare you judge the person who's fighting to stay alive in the middle of an ocean?

Rosie (17:54)

Yeah, shut up!

Right.

Ronika Merl (18:17)

It doesn't matter if an incident that seems to other people quite minor traumatized you and made you feel things that you wished you'd never had to feel. That is something you're going to deal with and you're going to carry in every which way that you possibly can. If you've gone through objectively really, really horrendous things and things that other people would see as like,

Rosie (18:18)

Hmm

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ronika Merl (18:47)

my god, this is the worst thing that could possibly happen to a human being. And you come out the other side, a kind person and a funny person and a person who has dealt with themselves and the world. That, yeah, that just means you're, again, that just means you're human. We keep forgetting, we keep forgetting that we are made of proteins and...

Rosie (19:07)

Yeah.

Ronika Merl (19:14)

Electric signals like that's literally it is all just chemistry chemistry and biology and and atoms flinging You know proteins around that's what we are and we we keep misunderstanding ourselves as this like as this like Complicated computer we're computers or just you know So yeah, I agree with you

Rosie (19:16)

Yeah

You

Ronika Merl (19:43)

million million percent there when you said you know I just don't like people saying but it could have been worse I don't like both sides of this is really really bad right so there's a side that says I should just shut up because it could have been worse and I was lucky anyway which is a very common trauma response right everybody that's the first kind of thing when something bad happens to us the trauma response is

Rosie (19:54)

Ugh.

Mm-mm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ronika Merl (20:12)

It wasn't so bad anyway and we talk ourselves out of it. That's not a healthy thing to do. That's not a coping mechanism that, you know, works in the long term. Short term, it can be really helpful to kind of just get over it, but long term, it doesn't work. And the other side of it that I also disagree with is to say, well, you're just traumatized over, like, the word trauma gets thrown around so much and you're traumatized over nothing. Nobody has the right to tell anybody else how.

Rosie (20:23)

Yeah.

Ronika Merl (20:42)

you know, what they're feeling or what they're dealing with. There's just no, you know, you can't do that. So, yeah, it's both sides need to look at themselves and need to kind of find a way to get through and find acceptance, I think. So, yeah, both sides are an issue.

Rosie (20:45)

Mmm, mmm.

Yeah.

Hmm. Hmm. What role do you think storytelling plays in processing our trauma?

Ronika Merl (21:21)

I well it yes, I think it's so the way we the way we form memories especially traumatic memories is There's two ways there's two pathways actually that we can go down one side is that we Try to override it we try to bury it we try to pretend that it never happened pretend it doesn't exist

Rosie (21:23)

does it play a role?

Ronika Merl (21:51)

which is a form of storytelling which is called in-lie. But it's kind of like, if you want to imagine like a small little brook somewhere in a forest and the trees are trying to grow a root over the brook so that it's hidden from view, right? That's what we're trying to do. All of these neurons and synapses that are forming pathways inside our brain, which is a very biological thing that you can almost like imagine like a little slime mold.

Rosie (21:55)

Mmmmm

Ronika Merl (22:20)

like just growing over the, over where the open hole is, right? And it's trying to connect and it's trying to pretend that the hole underneath doesn't exist, right? So that's a form of storytelling. That's where we tell ourselves, it didn't actually really happen. It wasn't so bad. I'm just making it up. I'm sure that I'm remembering it right. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong. Those are all storytelling. That's all an exercise in storytelling. That's, you know.

Rosie (22:35)

Yeah.

Hmmmm

Ronika Merl (22:49)

the brain trying to protect itself from itself, right? The experiences aren't real, they are how our brain reacts to the world, right? And then there's the other side of how we can deal with traumatic memories, which is to carve the path again and again and again. And that's when we get stuck in the kind of repetition reel of like, this happened, this happened, you cannot get over it. So it's literally the two sides of getting over it. The not getting over it and the trying to get over it so much that you're hiding it.

Rosie (22:52)

Right. Yeah.

Ronika Merl (23:18)

you, right? So both of that's storytelling and both of them have nothing to do with the truth, right? So because if you're going the path, if you're going kind of the path of like carving the path again and again and you're just kind of cutting yourself in the same wound again and again and again, that's not the truth either because you might just be reliving the same memory again and again and again but you're re-traumatizing yourself.

Rosie (23:19)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (23:47)

over and over and over and you're hurting yourself. Whereas the actual truth is that every time you touch upon this painful memory, a layer of skin, a layer of healing, a layer of processing, a layer of having dealt with the grief should have. That's a healthy healing process, right? So if we touch upon the thing that hurts us, but

Rosie (24:14)

Hmm.

Ronika Merl (24:16)

the next time we touch upon the thing that hurts us, there is a layer of healing that has come between me and the hurt, right? And when those layers are completely there, that's when we're back to being a healthy, healthy self, right? So the two things that we talked about, the two kind of, I don't wanna say wrong, but the two paths of storytelling of how we deal with a traumatic moment or a traumatic memory,

The thing that we're supposed to do is the middle, where we do touch upon the truth of the memory, the truth of what happened, the truth of what actually took place that hurt us so much. But then allow the healing process that is a natural process, because the brain heals itself, the body heals itself. So we allow that natural healing process to gently, gently take place.

Rosie (24:48)

Hmm.

Ronika Merl (25:14)

You don't want to forget. You don't want to erase the thing that happened. You shouldn't erase it. It's a part of who you are. You have become it and it has become you, but it doesn't need to overtake you. And the other side of continuously just punching yourself in that same hurtful place and not ever allowing it to heal, that's also not helpful at all. All right?

Rosie (25:16)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (25:42)

the way storytelling can help us is when we create the story that speaks truth but also helps us make sense. So when something bad has happened, we listen to other people who have also had this happen to them. And we listen to their stories and their stories can make sense of what happened to us. Or we tell stories.

Rosie (25:54)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ronika Merl (26:12)

This is what I do. We tell stories and we make sense of, okay, in my fictional world, a similar thing happens to this character, but they come through it. And then we watch this character that we made up come through it. And then we watch them come through it and learn from them to see how they came through it. And then we follow in their path. So that's how I think storytelling. And when I say storytelling, I mean art in general.

Rosie (26:14)

Hehehe

Ronika Merl (26:42)

Because you can say the exact same thing about music, you can say the exact same thing about visual arts, about painting, or dancing, or whatever it is, sport even, right? So I use storytelling as an example, but any, again, when we go back to that expression of humanity, any of those expressions of your pure humanity can be a tool for kind of...

Rosie (26:43)

Mmm... Mmm...

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (27:11)

making that journey happen and kind of making that healing process stick. So, yeah, I think storytelling is quintessential to the healing process. You wouldn't be able to without storytelling being there.

Rosie (27:18)

Mm.

Yeah, I totally agree. And I'm really glad your answer went in that direction. Because I mean, you never know. I know you're a storyteller, but maybe you would have gone, nah, it's got nothing to do with healing.

Ronika Merl (27:35)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rosie (27:45)

What I struggle with sometimes is still honoring what happened to me, still honoring that trauma, but finding a way to, the words I use are move forward. Like I'm still carrying it, still with me. And I almost phrase it as I'm, I'm the one now controlling my narrative.

There's the trauma and often we can, look, I'll speak to my experience. It can, it can take the lead and I'm letting it tell the story. Does that resonate for you?

Ronika Merl (28:27)

I wonder, and I hear this a lot and everybody kind of at some point says it, you use a really interesting phrase there. You use the words carry as if it was a heavy burden that's like somehow on your back or that somehow kind of that weighs down on you, right?

Rosie (28:40)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Ronika Merl (28:53)

I why you used that phrase.

Is that how you see it?

Rosie (28:59)

Mmm.

That's such an interesting question.

because I've never really unpacked that. think the way trauma and grief is portrayed and what we're kind of conditioned or groomed, however you want to put it, to believe is that it is this heavy weight. And I think it very much can be, right? And we can get drawn into a very dark place, yeah. But us,

Ronika Merl (29:22)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and it can weigh us down

and it can it can be a burden but I wonder I wonder just very specifically on exactly the kind of the train of thought that you just had where you said You first use the phrase you carry it and then use the phrase or something along the lines of it takes the lead, right? So at first it's like this thing on your back and then it it grabs you and it takes the lead and it It almost drags you along

Rosie (29:35)

it.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (29:54)

But the thing is, and here's the difference, and that's what I really want to dive into just now, it drags you along, but you carry it. Do see what I mean? It doesn't carry you. And I want, like, when we visualize these things, does it?

Rosie (30:05)

Yeah, what the f***?

But does it though, right?

But does it carry? This is so interesting. think it's different as we process it.

Ronika Merl (30:21)

Yeah,

exactly. But that's why I always kind of want to visualize and again use the language that is available to us. Because that's the beauty of language, that's the beauty of storytelling, that's the beauty of it all, is that the story that you have, that you use to kind of visualize and to see the thing that you are still holding on to, the thing that you...

Rosie (30:31)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mm.

Ronika Merl (30:50)

do want to honor because like you said, it's a part of who you are. You do want to honor, but how can you, what's really interesting to me there is the journey from I am carrying this thing on my back to I want to still honor everything that I've experienced as a part of me. That's the healing journey right there. That's core of it.

Rosie (31:11)

Hmm. Hmm.

Ronika Merl (31:20)

When we think about carrying something, when we think about how heavy we are, when we're weighed down by something.

I always like to think...

that that allows for us to see the hurt as an entity that is different, that is separate, that is placed upon us. Not within your skin, not within your body, not within your body weight. It's an extra weight. Which it is, because none of us were supposed to feel this way ever, right?

Rosie (31:44)

Mmm, mmm.

Hmm.

Ronika Merl (32:02)

None of us were supposed to be traumatized. None of us were supposed to go through grief. I mean, yes, of course. Yes, of course. Everybody is supposed to feel a little grief every once in while. You know what mean? That's what I mean. But none of us are supposed to be abused or be mistreated or be in that way. So we see it as a separate entity that we are forced to carry. Right. And then the entity can take over.

Rosie (32:20)

you

Ronika Merl (32:31)

So how do we pull that into ourselves and let it become a thing that strengthens our spine rather than be a burden?

That is indeed the question. I have not the answer. Not a human being on this planet has the answer. If they say they have the answer, they are a charlatan. They're trying to pull you into their cult. This is a lie.

Rosie (32:55)

Damn it! Damn it! I was waiting! I was waiting for it! Go on, this is gonna be a moment here.

They're full of shit.

Ronika Merl (33:18)

The answer to that question only happens to yourself and it happens to you when you've done the hard work of healing. It's difficult. Healing is so difficult. yeah, it's a difficult one. yeah, I think I loved, I really, really loved the visualization.

Rosie (33:24)

Mm-mm.

Ronika Merl (33:47)

that you just gave there, if I can say the word. It was a really powerful image and I wonder, yeah, it's a good image that you brought up.

Rosie (33:59)

kind of a painful image, so as you were talking and challenging that, I was like, well, is that actually what I believe? And I think sometimes I do, it can feel like that. I think it's a very real feeling. But also, so the visual that kind of popped up is like me and my trauma just like, I don't know, we're in sync and we're dancing and we're going, you know, like this beautiful dance. And yeah, it gets fucking painful, but also there's beautiful moments, I think, because.

Ronika Merl (34:06)

Yeah.

Yeah.

No.

Rosie (34:28)

There's tough, unfair, whatever you want to call it, lessons that we learn from our traumas.

Ronika Merl (34:34)

Yeah.

And see how the imagery just changed and flipped. Like that is so beautiful. You're having a dance with your trauma. You're dancing with it. All of a sudden that doesn't feel so heavy anymore. You're still connected. You're touching me. You're holding it. You're interacting with it. You're actively challenging it and are being challenged by it, because that's what a dance is. There's your honouring.

Rosie (34:48)

Mm-mm. Right, right, right.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Ronika Merl (35:05)

There it is. That's how you honor it. You dance with it. You interact with it. You allow it to take the lead when the rhythm of the music says so, and then you take the lead back, right? That's what a dance is. So maybe that's a really helpful exercise, you know, the next time you're out and about in the middle of nowhere, to just dance. To just...

Rosie (35:05)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah... Yeah...

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (35:33)

Dance with

your trauma a little bit and take it by the hand and just kind of...

Shake. Shake it around. And yeah, and just, I think interaction with our trauma, honest interaction, honest interaction that is centered in self care, self love and kindness. There you go. I think that's the healthiest way of dealing with everything is to interact with it as much as we possibly can.

Rosie (35:42)

Yeah!

Mmm, right, right.

Mmm.

Mm.

Ronika Merl (36:11)

Because that creates, that exactly creates those healing moments, those opportunities for healing, those opportunities where we try to touch the thing and then we realize, I touched that memory and it didn't hurt. What? Am I healed? And then all of a sudden, all of a sudden you're healed. The more you touch it, the more you deal with it, the more you dance with it.

Rosie (36:29)

Yeah, what? What?

Ronika Merl (36:40)

And I think that's such a beautiful image. If nothing else comes out of this conversation, the imagery with your trauma is already like we've already won. That's beautiful. So, yeah, I think I think that's a really beautiful way of looking at it.

Rosie (36:45)

Yeah. That is profound to me. Yeah!

Thank you for, you helped me get there. Like I have never kind of, yeah. Yeah. But so do you think there's ever a destination of we're healed, we're never going to get triggered again?

Ronika Merl (36:59)

Thank you! Thank you for that! That was beautiful!

No, no, no, no, no, no. Now, getting triggered and falling into like having, you know, a PTSD episode or being triggered and being really miserable or, you know, falling into depression. Those, yeah, they should eventually come to a point where they won't disappear completely.

Rosie (37:14)

You

Mmm mmm mmm

Ronika Merl (37:39)

depending on how severe the trauma is and how well you're healing. But likely they're never going to completely go away. And they should. They're a part of you. are, again, it is a part of you. You are a part of it. But what does disappear, I don't know if you've ever come across, I'm sure you have, the analogy of the tennis ball in the box of what Greek is.

Rosie (37:39)

Yeah.

Hmm. Right, right.

I haven't

actually.

Ronika Merl (38:08)

Oh my god, it's so beautiful. Actually, I'm gonna draw you a little picture because it's the most gorgeous, it is the most beautiful analogy. I'm just gonna grab a little piece of paper because it has explained grief to me in such a profound way. Let me just grab a piece of paper. One second.

Rosie (38:12)

yeah.

Yeah.

Mmmmm.

Ronika Merl (38:32)

there's a piece of paper. It just explains grief in such a perfect... If I have a pen... In such a perfect way. So grief is like a tennis ball in a box, right? And by grief I mean... My mic fell over. Grief is a tennis ball in a box, and by grief I mean trauma, I mean every kind of...

the thing that hurts, So at first,

I have no pants, hold on.

Sorry, you can cut this out if you want.

Rosie (39:15)

It's always when you need one.

Ronika Merl (39:23)

Okay, here it is. At first, so I don't know if you can see this on camera, right? So at first, this is grief, right? And this is the pain button. This is the pain button. This is, this is, when you touch this button, that's when it hurts, right? So the first time something bad happens, our grief ball is really, really huge. So it's gonna touch this button, like, it's gonna touch this button a lot. It's gonna come.

Rosie (39:30)

Yep, yep.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ronika Merl (39:52)

it's gonna constantly just, the button is gonna get hit, right? But over time, over time, our grief ball is gonna get smaller. Our grief ball is gonna get smaller and it's gonna bounce around and when it hits here, it doesn't hurt. And when it hits here, it doesn't hurt. And it's gonna bounce around, it's gonna bounce around and then, oop, it bounces onto the grief button and it's gonna hurt.

Rosie (39:56)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (40:20)

and then

the ball is going to get even smaller, right? And our grief button always stays the same size.

Rosie (40:27)

Yeah.

Ronika Merl (40:28)

But the ball, the grief ball, the memory is going to bounce around here. And it's the likeliness of it hitting the grief button is a lot less. And that is the progression of healing. That is how it works. So whenever we get triggered, well, the ball never the ball is never going to disappear. Right. But it's going to get smaller. And a tiny little ball isn't going to hit that button so hard.

Rosie (40:37)

Mmm... Mmm...

I love that.

Mm-mm.

Ronika Merl (40:58)

It can't, right? It's gonna like lightly bounce into it and you're gonna be like, I remember that. I remember my grief. The button is still there. The button is never gonna go away, but it doesn't completely take me out anymore. Cause my ball has gotten so small and has gotten so light. So you're going from like a really heavy like bowling ball.

Rosie (40:59)

Right.

Mm-mm.

Ronika Merl (41:28)

to like a ping pong ball. Right? And that's what you're trying to do. So when we look at the question that you asked, is it ever gonna go away? Is it ever gonna disappear? No, it won't. No, it won't. But it's gonna be, it's gonna be not as heavy and it's gonna be not as, you know, the pushing of the button isn't going to be quite as strong.

Rosie (41:31)

Yeah.

Ronika Merl (41:58)

over time. And that works for every single grief process. That works for losing a loved one. That works for breaking up relationships. That works for losing a job. That works for your political party not getting voted in. Like it works for everything. Everything gets better over time. So when, you know, when children get told, you won't be sad about this when you get married.

Rosie (41:58)

Mmm... Mmm...

Ronika Merl (42:28)

Yeah, kind of, true. I work with a lot of elderly people and I work with this amazing lady. She's 86 years old. She's one of the most amazing women of the 20th century. She shaped the century here in Ireland. She's the reason that there is a nursing college here in Ireland. She's traveled the world. In the 50s, she...

Rosie (42:31)

Mm-hmm, mm.

Ronika Merl (42:55)

early 60s she as a woman traveled from Ireland to Australia and then traveled through Australia for two years in a campervan in the 60s as a woman like what a woman like she did all these amazing things and but she's 86 now and she's blind and she can't really interact with the world anymore but her intellect is still there

Rosie (43:09)

What a badass. Yeah, wow.

Hmm.

Ronika Merl (43:25)

and

She holds so much grief. But grief is all gone, right? Because, you know, her memory is going and she's blind and she can't. What she remembers is humanity. What she remembers is extraordinary moments in her life. What she remembers is doing things. So it really does go away. Your grief...

Rosie (43:31)

Hmmmm

Ronika Merl (43:55)

really really goes away because eventually you go away. You know? And that's not a sad thing.

Rosie (44:00)

yeah

Ronika Merl (44:04)

That's not

a sad thing. Death is not a sad thing. Age is not a sad thing. We get to go on this journey. And the things that we get to take on this journey with us are our companions. What we strive to do is that those companions are love and hope and joy and exhilaration and happiness and

Rosie (44:14)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Ronika Merl (44:34)

all those beautiful things but that's not... no. Our companions are boredom and and tediousness and and confusion and anxiety. What what wonderful you know fellows to be to be traveling with. so you know yes the grief goes away.

Rosie (44:41)

YEEF

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (45:04)

at the setting of the sun, the grief shall also set. But by that time...

Rosie (45:10)

you

Ronika Merl (45:16)

grief, grief, trauma, whatever, will no longer feel like the heavy thing. It will feel like the companion that you've traveled with, the companion that has taught you lessons, the companion that has held your hand all these years, that you've hopefully danced with a million times. Because in very real terms, those things do shape us and they define

Rosie (45:44)

Yeah.

Ronika Merl (45:47)

the journey that we go on. So it's not a bad thing. None of these things.

Rosie (45:54)

Mmm.

Mmm. You know, I find interesting as you were talking and specifically when you were saying that grief goes away. I felt this internal resistance. Like, uh-uh, hell no. Excuse me. But then when you framed it as, you know, the setting of the sun, it's gone. But I mean, I don't know. I struggle with that and I don't know what it is, but there was, there's a

Ronika Merl (46:06)

Mm.

Mm-hmm. Good.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rosie (46:22)

big internal resistance when you're saying it goes. I'm like,

Ronika Merl (46:25)

Okay.

Okay, that's so interesting, I love that. So the resistance is to... What it wants to say is, no, no, no, the grief is supposed to go away.

Or is the resistance saying, no, the grief is never supposed to go away? Yeah. it's not supposed to go away because I'm holding onto it because it makes me who I am.

Rosie (46:50)

That, yeah, that one. Yeah.

And it's like, if it goes away, I'm just saying it was insignificant, but it's such a core part. I want it to be part of me. Yeah.

Ronika Merl (46:58)

Thank you.

Okay, this is so interesting. I love this so much.

So let's hold on to that right now.

Rosie (47:11)

Mm-hmm.

Ronika Merl (47:13)

When we go back to the dance metaphor, the grief is very much in the lead. In that loud moment of like, I'm, this is never gonna go away. I'm gonna hold on to this because it makes me who I am, right? There's two ways of saying it makes me who I am. One of them is it makes me who I am and this is who I am and there's nothing else I could ever be, right? And the other way of saying it is this makes me who I am. I understand it.

Rosie (47:24)

Right, right.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Mm.

Ronika Merl (47:42)

I am

Rosie (47:42)

Mm.

Ronika Merl (47:43)

a part of it and it is a part of me and I am in control and I am who I am with it but not because of it. Also not in spite of it, just with it. There's, that's, and if it's a kind of a loud reaction that comes in and wants to explode and wants to say hey, brrrr, that's...

Rosie (47:46)

Mm.

Yeah.

yeah. Yes. With it. Yeah.

Ronika Merl (48:12)

I would think about that a little bit more and kind of be like, okay, maybe that's the loud thing. Maybe that's the it, trying to take control. Whereas when you come back to it and when you take that journey, you know, a few more times and you come back to it and you want to say, yeah, no, it's not going to go away. Actually, it's not going to go away because I don't want it to because it is my companion and I will travel with it for the rest of my life. Different story, different story, right?

Rosie (48:18)

Yeah. Yeah.

Hmm.

I think I'm closer to that side, but it's not like I stay there. It, it fluctuates. got to say some days I'm like, fucking, you know, like, you do feel like, yeah, I am who I am in spite of my trauma. Like, fuck you.

Ronika Merl (48:42)

Yeah.

Hmm. Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, and those are good moments too because anger is another part of grief, right? So it's the grieving process. Everything can be broken down into the five stages of grief, everything. And acceptance is the last one. And when we come to... No, because, and there's a reason, because by the time you get to acceptance, all the work's been done. Acceptance just...

Rosie (49:01)

Mm.

Mmm.

True. Yeah. Would you say it's the hardest one?

Mmm.

Get right.

Ronika Merl (49:26)

falls into place. Acceptance has no work left. Acceptance just, it's like a flower petal landing on a still lake, right? It just very gently falls into place and there's complete peace, right? That's what, there's no work left to be done, to find acceptance. If you find yourself still working and you're like, I have to accept this, I have to accept it, you ain't there. You ain't there yet. Yeah, sorry.

Rosie (49:28)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Yeah, yeah. Sorry to say it. Yeah.

Ronika Merl (49:56)

hasn't happened yet, you've not yet accepted it. So yeah, no, no, no, no work, no work left to be done. And acceptance happens so great, you don't even notice it. You come back to this again when we go back to the paintball, the ball hits the button and you're like,

Rosie (50:01)

Yeah.

Ronika Merl (50:20)

I have, there's nothing that it doesn't hurt. I acknowledge it, it is there. I experienced the memory and I'm okay with it. I am okay with everything. I'm okay with this ball. I'm okay with the button. I'm okay with the box. I'm okay with everything. And that's a long journey. And that's like the true Zen.

Rosie (50:28)

you

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (50:50)

and Zen masters can achieve that. But also, in smaller ways, you scraped your knee, I'm sure, at some point when you were a child. I'm sure when you now remember this memory, you have accepted that it happened and it's okay. Do you what I mean? Yeah, exactly. So there are moments that show us that that journey is possible.

Rosie (51:02)

Mm-hmm.

Alright! But at the time it's the end of the world! Yeah. Yeah.

Hmm.

Ronika Merl (51:20)

Sadly, sadly a lot of people don't. I've known, I've known, I worked with a woman a good few years ago and she couldn't. She couldn't. She just really, she could not and sadly she's no longer with us, she passed. But to the end of her days she could not, she couldn't let go. She just could not let go of the things that she felt like she

Rosie (51:22)

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (51:50)

didn't want to let go of. And so yeah, for some of us, that journey remains unfinished. But for most of us, I think it's a journey that is definitely possible to finish.

Rosie (51:52)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Why are so many of us scared to let go?

Ronika Merl (52:18)

Because the self-image that we create, the storytelling that we do, is very much framed within the understanding of... Take me as an example, right? Because I know my story. I my story best. I could very well frame myself as the woman who has survived prostitution.

Rosie (52:28)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, Yeah.

Ronika Merl (52:47)

or the woman who has survived childhood sexual abuse. I could walk through life, I could have given you that when you asked me to introduce myself. I could have given you that. I could have. Most of my activism work and most of my like this kind of work frames me as the woman who has gone through human trafficking. That's not who I am, no.

Rosie (52:58)

Right. You could have, yeah.

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (53:17)

When you asked me who I am, I was like, I tell stories and make up things. But of course it defines me. Of course it is a part of me. But would I say that it's a defining part of me? No. I love that part of me. I think I love her. She's so cool. Like she's so nice. I love her. This woman who has gone through those things. Like she's...

Rosie (53:17)

Hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Ronika Merl (53:46)

I just want to hug her, she's amazing.

I would not define myself as that. Now, the question is how did I get there? Because that's a really good place to be in. Like wanting to hug this poor lady who has gone through these horrendous things. That's a really healthy place and being, you know, accepting her and for all the choices she made. How did I get here? I think it happened in 10 second increments.

Rosie (54:01)

Yeah, right. Right.

Yeah

Ronika Merl (54:23)

Right? So what I always say is there were 10 seconds in 2012 when I thought that I could get out of prostitution. The next day it was probably 30 seconds. The next day it was probably maybe 10 minutes. The next day it was like two hours. And then all of a sudden I walked out of the room that I'd been held in and I believed

Rosie (54:24)

Mmm.

Mm.

Ronika Merl (54:53)

continuously and for the rest of my life that I am a woman who was able to walk away from prostitution. Right? Because it's the truth. But it started with a 10 second flourish of allowing myself to think that. And that's how healing starts. And those, it's like a little bird call that will just come into your psyche in the back of your mind.

Rosie (55:17)

Yeah

Ronika Merl (55:20)

again and again and again until you actually listen to the call and you actually follow it. And if you allow yourself 10 seconds, and 10 seconds is so long, it's such a long time, it really is, 10 seconds of loving yourself with, not in spite of, not because of, not whatever, just with.

Rosie (55:25)

Mm.

you

Mm-hmm.

Ronika Merl (55:51)

thing that happened. In a gentle way, in a kind way, in a completely open way, 10 seconds of loving yourself with everything that happened to you. It's really hard. But the next day, you got a minute. The next day you get 10, the next day you, you know, and then eternity. And even if...

Rosie (56:08)

Hmm.

Ronika Merl (56:21)

And that's what I always say, even if you only ever get 10 seconds of loving yourself unconditionally with the things that happen to you, you've already lived a pretty damn good life because having been loved so completely and so unconditionally by yourself is a rare thing. And a lot of people never have that. A lot of people don't ever achieve even a second of that.

Rosie (56:43)

Mm.

Ronika Merl (56:51)

So having 10 seconds of complete self-love, unconditional and completely calm and quiet, not a loud thing, not loud at all. Just sitting with yourself, accepting yourself. That's where acceptance starts, is right there. That is the best way. And to me, that was the only way of getting to a place where I feel like, yeah, I'm fine. So yeah.

Rosie (57:12)

Hmm.

Ronika Merl (57:22)

starting very very small and then allowing yourself to grow at your own pace. I think that's probably the way.

Rosie (57:33)

Mmm, I like that. Starts with 10 seconds. That's less scary.

Ronika Merl (57:36)

Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. 10 seconds is possible. 10 seconds of loving yourself. And you might fail and you might, you might kind of, you might do it. And then you think like, yeah, but there was intrusive thought in second seven. And then you're like, mm, that wasn't quite, that didn't actually, that wasn't actually happening. And then you try again and then you try again and then you try again. And either, either you, you, you.

Rosie (57:42)

Mmm.

yeah, yep, yep.

Ronika Merl (58:05)

complete the journey or you know you don't which is also fine which is also fine there are literally I'd say tens of millions of people who walk through life

With so much grief and with so much anger and with so much unprocessed, you know, whatever. Everybody who has ever, you know, snapped at someone else on the street for no reason. There you go. Unprocessed trauma. Everybody who's ever, you know, had to be horrible to their, you know, to the people in their team at work.

Rosie (58:29)

Mm.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Ronika Merl (58:57)

There you go, that's unprocessed something. So it's perfectly fine to not achieve enlightenment. Most of us don't, I certainly don't have enlightenment. But that's also, again, a form of acceptance is to be like, you know what, this is a thing, this grief button is just never gonna not be an issue. Fine.

Rosie (58:57)

Hmm.

Right. Yeah.

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (59:26)

Whatever, I'm just always gonna be hung up about this specific thing. There is an actress in this world. I will not name her, because hopefully maybe one day I get to work with her. When I look at her face, I get so unreasonably angry. And I'm like, she's so talented. through kind of six degrees, I actually am connected with her. And I'm like, she's such a wonderful person.

Rosie (59:37)

You

Wow.

Ronika Merl (59:56)

Hater. I don't know why. That is something I'm probably never going to be able to let go of, okay? There are things that sometimes we just cannot let go. And that's fine. And that's a flaw that you have. Cool. What else is new? I'm human. I got flaws. know? So yeah, I think to sum up this rambling talkies.

Rosie (1:00:01)

Hmm?

Right.

That's alright, yeah.

Right.

Ronika Merl (1:00:26)

And the journey towards acceptance is a difficult one, but it's well worth it and it's well, it's fun. It's good. The good journey. The good journey. As long as you're kind of curious about it, it's good.

Rosie (1:00:38)

Ooh, it's fun! Yeah!

Yeah, I think this leads quite well into a question I ask all my guests.

And of course I'm going to ask it to you. So, Ronika, what does freedom mean to you?

Ronika Merl (1:00:56)

Yeah.

Mm.

Freedom is the...

Freedom is the option to pursue life and everything it entails at your own pace.

Rosie (1:01:19)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (1:01:24)

Because there are certain milestones that eventually all of us, most of us will hit. Our first time we fall in love, first time we get our heart broken, the first time we heal from that heartbreak, the first time we lose a loved one, the first time we get disappointed, the first time we get rejected. remember that.

Rosie (1:01:51)

Mm.

Ronika Merl (1:01:52)

The first

time we have a creative spark, the last time we have a creative spark, the last time all of these things happen. Freedom is the option to pursue those things or let those things happen as they may without having to force them.

Rosie (1:02:01)

you

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (1:02:18)

So.

Freedom is the option of letting go. Because if you have the option of not pursuing them, but pursuing those things, but letting them happen and allowing them to come to you at the pace where they may, not at the pace where you're chasing them, that's freedom. Because if you're chasing after things, you are not free. If you are trying to design your life,

Rosie (1:02:39)

Yeah

Ronika Merl (1:02:50)

you're most certainly not free. If you are, if you are forcibly trying to fit anything into a schedule, you are not free. So telling yourself that I have to be married by the age of 35.

Rosie (1:03:02)

Mmm. Mmm.

Ronika Merl (1:03:12)

Girl, and if I'm divorced by the age of 37, I failed. Yeah, that's not freedom. That's not freedom. Telling yourself that by the age of 28, I should be working in my dream job. No. No, no you shouldn't. You don't even know what your dream job is. You have no idea, right? At 28, I had no idea who I was,

Rosie (1:03:20)

You're not free, yeah.

Right!

No

Ronika Merl (1:03:43)

So freedom is, I think it's, I don't think I want to come back to acceptance. Freedom is the ability to accept things as they come.

Rosie (1:03:55)

Mm.

Mm.

Ronika Merl (1:03:58)

So yeah, that's freedom.

Rosie (1:04:03)

That resonates. it makes me think. So I'm 33. When I hit 30, hey, high five. So when I, like, I see getting older as privilege and that's probably, that's probably influenced by losing my parents young. I see it as a privilege and I definitely, not so much anymore, but.

Ronika Merl (1:04:08)

Mm, so good.

awesome

Yeah.

Rosie (1:04:29)

There are moments in life where there's a flare of anger when somebody is just, they don't want to get older or they hide their age. But let me get back to the point. When I hit 30, something surprised me because I think, you know, getting old is a privilege. This is awesome. Cool. But there was this moment of shit. I thought I was going to have my life together by now. Whatever the fuck that means.

Ronika Merl (1:04:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. my god,

yeah.

Rosie (1:04:58)

And just for a little moment, I felt really down. And then I went, actually, you know what? That's cool. I don't think I'm ever going to have it together. It's fine. Yeah.

Ronika Merl (1:05:06)

Yeah, yeah, come

on. So this 86 year old lady that I look after sometimes, she's 86. She has literally lived for an entire century and she doesn't even feel like she has her life.

She's like, she's like, sometimes she's like, you know what, sometimes I don't even know, I don't even know what I'm doing and I'm like.

You're 50 years older than me and you-

What chance is there for the rest of us? Oh my god, I'm supposed to be raising children. I don't know what's going on. I have no idea. What? Great. What a beautiful adventure. And I 100 % agree with you. I 100 % agree with you about aging being such a wonderful, such a great, fantastic privilege. Oh my god, it's so, oh, it's amazing. Life is just so amazing. So.

Rosie (1:05:50)

Jesus, yeah.

Mm.

Mm.

Ronika Merl (1:06:12)

The same thing happened to me when I turned 30. I quit my job 30 days after my 30th birthday. I quit my job and I became a writer. And yeah, same thing. It didn't really hit me, but I was like, I'm ready for the next part of the journey. was like, ooh, I'm 30 now. I wanna jump. I wanna jump. I'm ready for the next part.

Rosie (1:06:19)

I love that. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Ronika Merl (1:06:41)

Ever since then, whenever there was a big life decision to be made or whenever there was a big question that hung in the room, the prevailing sentiment was, that'll be an adventure. That'll be fun. That'll be painful. Gonna learn some shit.

Rosie (1:06:59)

Yes, yes!

Yeah.

Ronika Merl (1:07:09)

I've had my heart broken since I've been 30. I've, you know, moved across millions of places. I've traveled. I've had adventures. I've, you know, done things. If my next 30 years are gonna be as full and as adventurous and full of lessons as my last 30 years have been, my god, like, what? That's gonna be, that's gonna be just...

Rosie (1:07:35)

Yeah

Ronika Merl (1:07:39)

Incredible. Like what a privilege. What an adventure we are all on. And I think the thing that you have and that I definitely also have is curiosity. Because you're curious. You wanna know. You wanna know what's gonna happen. You wanna know what's gonna happen if you move into a van, right?

Rosie (1:07:40)

Hmmmm

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Ronika Merl (1:08:08)

You want to know what's going to happen if you take the step. You want to know. And that's also a form of freedom. Like having the ability to say, want to know, and then find out. And even if it's a bad thing, like even if the thing that you find out is a really, really bad thing.

Rosie (1:08:08)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

But...

Ronika Merl (1:08:38)

fine, cool, still good, you still learn something. You might have one more trauma to dance with. But, you know, what a great opportunity to go dancing. So yeah, think that positive kind of, I always hate the word mindset, but yeah, the positive mindset of it is an opportunity. It is a cause for celebration because you...

Rosie (1:08:52)

Hmm.

Ronika Merl (1:09:07)

are still, the sun isn't setting yet, is, yeah, think it's a good thing. I just cannot bring myself to complain about anything. It's just not, can't, yeah.

Rosie (1:09:11)

Yeah.

Yeah

Veronica, this has been a profound conversation and I feel like we've barely, we've barely fricking scratched the surface, but it has been profound. feel like there's, there's like a whole series potential in here. It's been.

Ronika Merl (1:09:26)

It really has! I learned so much! my god! Yes!

I think dancing

with trauma is like a whole, that's a whole different. That was beautiful. Like the imagery of that was, thank you so much for creating that imagery. Like that was so beautiful. I think I'm gonna, that's gonna, that is also gonna stay with me. That imagery of dance, I will steal that idea. And my next few podcasts, I'm talk about dancing with trauma, like definitely.

Rosie (1:09:43)

I need to go explore that. I'm, I'm, yeah.

Yeah.

Do it.

Yeah, yeah. Well,

thank you for helping me get there. It's yeah

Ronika Merl (1:10:05)

Thank you. Yes, it was so good. Thank you so much. Yeah, this is really fun.

I loved this conversation. It was so good. Thank you so much for having me on.

Rosie (1:10:14)

Yeah, of course. We might have to do another one. Yeah.

Ronika Merl (1:10:17)

I think so.