84: Healing Through Creativity - A Doctor’s Journey to Artistic Freedom With Vasu Tolia

Rosie (00:46)

Welcome back to the Pursuit of Freedom podcast. Joining us today is Dr. Wasu Tolyar. Dr. Wasu transitioned from a successful medical career as a researcher and pediatrician to now pursuing art and finding healing and purpose through creativity. So we're going to be doing a deep dive into career and life transitions, the power of creativity and finding purpose in unexpected places. So if you're going through

a big change at the moment or considering a big change or beginning to explore your creativity, you're going to love this episode. So Dr. Wasu, thank you so much for joining us today.

Vasu Tolia (01:28)

Thank you so much, Rosie, for having me. It's my pleasure and honor to be with you.

Rosie (01:33)

Yeah, I can't wait to dive into this.

I want to start a little bit with your background because I don't know if it's just me, but going from a more traditional sort of career like in research and medicine to creativity, in my mind, that's almost like opposite ends of the spectrum. So how on earth did that happen?

Vasu Tolia (02:01)

It really happened when I was thinking of stepping away from medical career. But to be honest with you, I have been creative throughout. Because even to think of research projects and ideas and to execute them and to give them to your mentees and fellows and things like that requires continued creativity.

Rosie (02:10)

Hmm.

Vasu Tolia (02:30)

But in the direction of the art, happened, or rather I shifted it into this gear after I decided to slow down and step away from medical career.

Rosie (02:47)

You mentioned the creativity or the creative aspects in the medical profession. Can you tell me some more? Because I think a lot of people, they go, I'm not creative or they assume that their role isn't creative.

Vasu Tolia (03:05)

It's really a perception of mind or your mindset as to how you think of yourselves. But you know, everybody is creating something all the time, even when you're cooking and producing a meal you're creating. Just to give you a generic example, and I'm sure in your listeners, you know, personal careers or professional careers also,

Rosie (03:08)

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (03:31)

They are constantly doing something like even making lists to keep yourself more organized is being creative in my mind. So creativity can be in simple things. It doesn't have to be just sitting in front of canvas or a piano and think of music. So I think when everyone must feel creative,

Rosie (03:40)

Mmm.

Mmmmm

Vasu Tolia (03:59)

in their minds and then take it in the direction they want to.

Rosie (04:04)

Yes. I want to go a bit deeper on that and hear your thoughts. You've touched on this already, but what exactly is creativity? Because a lot of people, you just mentioned it, sitting in front of a canvas, those traditional things that we see in a taught, drawing, painting, creating, but your definition feels a little bit different. So tell me more.

Vasu Tolia (04:06)

you

Okay.

Yeah.

I think it's a very broad and generic definition because as you know, creativity can be in so many fields. It can be in science, arts, literature. Everywhere you go, people develop new theories and do studies and all that. They are all being creative. But to me, creative means doing something new and different.

that you have either adapted from or learned from somewhere else and molded into your particular kind of creativity or it is something that's just coming de novo, you know, out of nowhere that you felt like doing this and started to work on it because obviously, you know, nothing gets created in a moment. It takes time.

Rosie (05:25)

Hmm.

Yeah,

right.

Vasu Tolia (05:32)

It takes

time to plant the seed and think along it and letting it grow. But those are the small steps that lead towards doing something new and different that I would define as creativity.

Rosie (05:45)

I like

that view on creativity. I'd love to know what drew you to creativity. Was it a natural pull or was it something that you had to consciously do?

Vasu Tolia (06:01)

I, if it doesn't come naturally to you, I think you have to teach yourself to do it if you want to do it. To some people it is innate, like just happens naturally that they're able to do things. But for others, you may have to cultivate that kind of a habit or trend. If you feel you want to be that way.

Rosie (06:07)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

So do you think creativity is something we all need more of in our life? Because you just said there, if we want to.

Vasu Tolia (06:45)

Yes, definitely. Creativity is something we all have. And how we use it, it's up to us. But I think when you do something like that and engage more than one of your senses to make or do something,

Rosie (06:56)

Hmm.

Vasu Tolia (07:12)

Then you activate the prefrontal cortex in the brain from where the healthy neurotransmitters go inside of the brain into what is called limbic system. And they stimulate release of, further release of dopamine, which is also a healthy neurotransmitter and suppress cortisol, which increases the stress level. So whether you are gardening, cooking, sewing, knitting,

dancing, creating visual art, or writing. I'm just naming a few of the creative projects that I can think of, but I'm sure there are many more beyond that. That will bring out these healthy reactions in your mind, and you will feel them as decreasing the level of stress.

Rosie (07:55)

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (08:09)

So I feel that everybody must practice it in some way, whatever way they feel good about it.

Rosie (08:14)

Mm.

Yeah. And I love how you just use science to help explain or back up in a way what you've just said, because I really, I was going to ask you if there's still an interest in medicine. And I get a feeling there still is based on the answer you just gave. So do you think medicine and art go well together? Like how, how does that work?

Vasu Tolia (08:48)

I think of them as parallels because I think I am what I am today without having had that medical background. But when it came to...

Rosie (08:52)

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (09:04)

You know, choosing a second career, it was a challenge. Like, you are stepping away from a well-established profession in which you have a name and a career for yourself. And to being a nobody, you know, in the art of, in the field of visual art, to start from scratch and establish yourself not knowing.

Rosie (09:10)

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (09:35)

how successful you may be without having gone through this experiment. So it's like taking a risk in a career thing. Not only that, you also face self-doubts because you have had this before. Then that leads to an internal conflict.

Rosie (09:41)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (10:01)

Then you have external invalidation from others saying, my God, you're going to stop being a doctor and want to do art? Why would art need to want to do that? So those kinds of things that you have to get over. And it takes some courage and a lot of time because success in art to me didn't come overnight. I did it for...

Rosie (10:09)

Yeah, yeah.

you

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (10:30)

five, six years before I started even entering competitions and winning awards. And so it was a gradual process, but I'm glad I did it. Read myself from the confines of traditional teachings.

Rosie (10:34)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. How did you push through all of the self doubt and the fears at the beginning?

Vasu Tolia (10:52)

you

In the beginning it was very tough because although I took a few lessons,

Rosie (11:02)

Hmm.

Vasu Tolia (11:10)

I wasn't very happy doing just representational art. But then I wanted to do something more and having had no art degree, I started to teach myself. So I'm basically self-taught through YouTubes and taking workshops and those kinds of educational modalities. So I really don't follow traditional rules of composition.

and things like that that you were taught in the art world. having that creative freedom has really allowed me to evolve myself. My medical background provided a different kind of discipline, but then I was used to looking for hidden signs and symptoms or, you know, from observing the behavior of the patients and parents and things like that. So...

Rosie (11:42)

Mm.

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (12:07)

I started to apply them into making art and that has influenced my artistic choices and artistic outcomes in unexpected ways.

Rosie (12:22)

Mmm.

So how has your life changed since embracing your creativity?

Vasu Tolia (12:33)

It has changed that I'm not that on the go all the time because when I was a full tenured professor and doing, you know, rolling all the balls of educator, teacher, mentor and clinician, I was, you know, devoting like almost

Rosie (12:42)

Hmm.

Vasu Tolia (13:02)

12 hour days to my work. And even on the weekends it didn't stop. But this way I'm more calm, more relaxed. I do it at my own pace, but I do make it a point of trying to do it every day if I can. Because a schedule and ongoing practice is what is going to make you better. We all know them.

Rosie (13:05)

Wow.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mm.

Mm. Mm.

Vasu Tolia (13:34)

I do that rather than follow any other rigid guidelines. And I love to go and see art of others and in museums and exhibitions because you learn a lot from other artists. And many times you may want to adopt a style or a way one artist worked. And if you want to incorporate in your own, can experiment with it and it will turn out as something quite different from what you saw.

Rosie (13:47)

Mm-hmm.

Vasu Tolia (14:03)

it will still be a new twist on what you wanted to do.

Rosie (14:07)

Mmm. Yeah. And I'm curious. How has it-

affected your perception of who you are, like your self identity? Was that a big shift going from, you know, medical career, you're doing 12 hour days to all of a sudden just adding something? Well, I'm not sure. Do you think the creativity replaced what you were doing before or was it an and situation? It was something you added.

Vasu Tolia (14:26)

Thank

No, I think it was a consequence of the way I chose to transition. Excuse me. So the pivotal moment came for me when I did my first solo show, which was called Woman's Journey, in which I had 24 paintings of women in different roles.

Rosie (14:53)

Mm.

Mmm.

Wow.

Vasu Tolia (15:09)

For me, it was more than just an artistic milestone. It was a declaration of identity, to be honest with you. I was not just dabbling in art. I was claiming my space as an artist, you know, what it made me feel. And the title itself, The Woman's Journey, was deeply personal to me because it reflects that not just women's narratives, but my own transformation.

Rosie (15:15)

Hmmmm

Yeah.

Vasu Tolia (15:37)

And that was the moment when I proved to myself and the world that being a physician and an artist were not mutually exclusive. I could be both. Because I see devil in medicine a little bit. I don't see patients, but I do consult. And that point I felt to myself internally, I proved to myself that my art was going to be more than just a hobby.

Rosie (15:47)

Yes. Yes.

huh. Yeah.

Yes. And so your version of success in creativity, you've mentioned things like entering the art show and that was a really pivotal moment. It sounds very important to you. Do you think that's something that everybody needs to do on their journey of creativity? Do they need to enter the art show or win awards in order to be successful?

Vasu Tolia (16:37)

No, but it depends on what your internal push is. I know artists who practice art because it must be giving their pressure, but they have no desire to enter shows or competitions and things like that. They are just happy doing it more as a hobby than anything else.

Rosie (16:43)

Yeah, okay.

you

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (17:01)

If you

Rosie (17:01)

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (17:02)

want to be more than a hobbyist and have other missions with it, then I think you have to prove yourself to the world, be recognized, so that others will respect you in a different way. You know, not just like after decades of being known as Dr. Tonya, the physician, stepping into the art world required an internal shift.

Rosie (17:18)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Vasu Tolia (17:29)

Initially,

I had approached it as a creative outlet, but over time, the depth of emotional expression in my work has proved that it was something more. I call it a calling now. That I felt that I needed to do something more.

Rosie (17:43)

Yeah.

Vasu Tolia (17:49)

And the contrast between internal doubts and external reactions from what others are thinking and influencing your judgment is something that you have to overcome. Without doing that, without that perspective, you just keep on reinforcing the doubts and defeat your purpose. So I was to redefine my success on my own terms.

Rosie (18:02)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Yep.

Vasu Tolia (18:18)

Validation of my work, especially through awards and other recognitions, have helped me bridge that internal conflict in a very positive

Rosie (18:26)

Hmm.

It sounds like quite a healing process. Would you agree with that? Yeah.

Vasu Tolia (18:32)

Very much.

Totally.

Rosie (18:37)

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (18:38)

And it took me time to discover about this healing because when I stepped away from medicine, my mind was obviously in a turmoil. But it took me years to get that calmness after.

Rosie (18:43)

Okay.

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (18:58)

getting in a zone with painting, you know, where I forget about how much time is and responsibilities of everyday life and things like that. And that's when I realized that my mother, the latter part of her life, used to draw with colored pencils a lot. And I used to think, you know, why is mom sitting and doing this and she used to pass hours doing that?

Rosie (19:17)

Hmm

Vasu Tolia (19:29)

And it happened because once my children grew up, or my other nieces and nephews grew up when she visited all of us, she had to pass time because the kids were not there to play and pass time with her anymore as they grew up. And in retrospect, I realized that that was her art therapy for herself.

You know, he was just feeling so happy passing her time doing that, that she was forgetting about all the other things that she would miss.

Rosie (20:02)

Mmm.

How would you suggest to other people? if that, you lent into your creativity at a time there's a lot of stress and you were going through change. If someone is in a similar situation, it'll be different, but if they're experiencing a lot of stress or doubt in where they're going in life, pondering a big decision, how might they use art and creativity to help them through?

Vasu Tolia (20:34)

I think they have to cultivate this evolution of freedom because they have to give themselves permission to think of wanting to do something different and to think about it. And initially it may not be one thing that appeals to them unless they know for sure that this is what I want to do.

Rosie (20:45)

Mm.

Vasu Tolia (20:54)

They may have to try a few different things and then decide this is what I'm going to settle on. So it's process of discovery. And when you find it, I'm sure when one finds it, they find comfort. They will start feeling pretty good and positive about wanting to be able to do it.

Rosie (21:03)

Mmm.

Yes.

Vasu Tolia (21:18)

So depending on what stage of your career you are, you have to really decide whether you can just let go of the previous career and just do this. But then we all know that to be able to make such a change, you need to have economic freedom. So that depending on your bread and butter. initially there is not going to be any

Rosie (21:40)

Yeah.

Vasu Tolia (21:50)

know, gains from these kind of things. It's just going to be expenses of spending, know, getting supplies and doing this and learning and paying for the workshops and all that. I'm just giving my personal example, but I don't apply to anyone's new choices. And before going in that direction more, they really have to know that's what they want to do.

Rosie (21:54)

Mmm.

Right. Right, right.

you

Vasu Tolia (22:18)

That's why people always say that if you want to become an artist, know, always keep your daytime job.

Rosie (22:29)

True, yep.

The saying of the poor artist is, yeah, has some truth to it, right? What do you have to say to people who say and believe that they're not creative?

Vasu Tolia (22:36)

Yeah.

I think it's a mindset. I know many people say I can't even draw a line. When you know it is simple, even if you can't go and draw a straight line, you can go draw a curved line or a twisted line or whatever you want to do. But you have to try it, provided that's what you want to do.

Rosie (22:58)

Wow.

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (23:16)

Like I was telling you, creativity comes in many ways, not just in visual art. There are so many other forms of creativity. So whatever gels with them, I think they have to keep an open mind and try and do it. You know, so many cooking shows and things, you know, cropping up, you know, every time you turn your head, there is some kind of a new show or...

Rosie (23:29)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Vasu Tolia (23:42)

art form or singing or dancing and so many other forms of creativity that people do. So I'm sure there is something there for everybody.

Rosie (23:53)

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (23:55)

And it's there for them to find and discover.

Rosie (23:59)

Yeah, there's not necessarily a fixed path, is there?

Vasu Tolia (24:04)

No, absolutely not. It's different for different people. Like, you know, for my husband, it's golf. So, I mean, that's his passion in life, that he wants to decrease his handicap. And for me, it's to just create more and more art and get better at it.

Rosie (24:13)

Mmmmm. Mmmmm.

Yeah.

Mmm. Mmm. You've mentioned a couple of times that these beliefs come from our mindset around whether we're creative or not. And I'd love to know your take of where does this mindset come from? Is it all internal? Are we influenced by society? Is it a combination of both?

Vasu Tolia (24:55)

I would say it's a combination of both because to defy traditions takes a lot of courage and we have always, you know, kind of awarded ourselves, you know, by having a steady job and profitable career and things like that. I'm telling you when I was growing up in India,

Rosie (25:02)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (25:21)

Most of the people who were good in the studies either became engineers or doctors. Very few went in other careers. And when you come over here, you know, people have so many more choices. Now I'm talking about 50 years back. over here there are so many other choices. So sometimes not having a focus is also an issue. Because if you keep on fleeting from

Rosie (25:28)

Hmm.

Mm-mm.

Mm.

Vasu Tolia (25:51)

one project to another or one kind of career to another, you don't settle into anything. So I think you have to have an internal focus, a drive to want to be something and do something and get help from the external resources, which would be family, friends, even community and society, you know, and try and be what you want to be.

Rosie (26:18)

Hmm. Trying to be what you want to be. Yeah, that's beautiful. You mentioned earlier, you refer to your art and creativity as your calling now. So do you think art has helped you find your purpose or is it your purpose?

Vasu Tolia (26:39)

No, it has really helped me find a purpose in the sense that it has given me freedom to give back, like making an impact on the society also. It has helped me evolve a philanthropic vision.

Rosie (26:50)

Mmm.

Okay.

Vasu Tolia (26:54)

because

now I want to, I have some missions like women's empowerment and protecting the planet and helping medical research and things like that. So I have connected with a few of these kinds of organizations. So the customers, know, at my website can select which one they want to contribute to and I can give a portion of my sales to the charity that gels with them.

Rosie (27:18)

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (27:23)

And I think that helps me combine my passion with a purpose. And I feel very good about it. And it motivates me more and more because I would like to raise more and more funds for them after meeting my expenses. And if I can, you know, create, generate more sales and things like that, I would increase my proportion to them even more.

Rosie (27:42)

Hmm.

Vasu Tolia (27:52)

because there is, you know, a huge satisfaction in doing that, in helping others. And I feel that when people choose my art or choose to buy it, they are not just beautifying their space, they are giving back to community and helping the world become a better place.

Rosie (28:16)

It sounds like what you're doing is very aligned with how you want to show up in the world, which I think is beautiful. I'm not sure everybody gets to that place.

Vasu Tolia (28:34)

Well, I think we all have to try and focus on our purpose in life.

Rosie (28:37)

Right? Try!

Yeah.

And has making decisions become easier now that you're clearer on your purpose and that you're, you're living in that purpose? Does it make life easier in any way?

Vasu Tolia (28:56)

Not really, you know, have to keep on working at it because right now my purpose through podcasts like this and all is not only talking about the story of reinvention and second career, et cetera, but also to spread the message to the world about how art can benefit us, you know, to deal with stress. And again, I will reemphasize whatever kind of art that appeals to the people. And for everyone, it's different.

Rosie (28:57)

Yes!

you

Vasu Tolia (29:26)

it does definitely help you heal from whatever stress is. You don't have to have a post-traumatic stress disorder or something severe like that. Even from day-to-day stresses, if you practice some sort of exercise meaningfully, you know, it will help you focus better.

Rosie (29:48)

Yeah, yeah.

I agree, that really resonates with me. I think it's so true. For me, my creative outlet at the moment is my podcast, which some people might not consider creative, but for me it is and it just feels good and it helps me stay clear and present and feel like I'm doing something that is worthwhile.

Vasu Tolia (30:14)

I think having a podcast is a very creative thing because you have to solicit people with different ideas and passions and present them to your audience because the purpose of your podcast is to help others by stimulating and inspiring them. So I feel it's a great thing that you're doing.

Rosie (30:39)

Yeah,

thank you. I totally agree. I think you're right.

Now, Wasu, I want to ask you a question that I ask every single guest on this podcast. And I am curious what your answer is going to be to this. So what does freedom mean to you?

Vasu Tolia (30:55)

Okay.

Freedom means to me to be able to do what I want to be, what I want to do and be what I want to be. And whatever my purpose is in life to achieve it and to be able to achieve it and be happy about doing that. So this is not like being in bondage or behind a prison cell or

Rosie (31:08)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Vasu Tolia (31:32)

something like that because many times internally we are prisoners of our own minds and beliefs and traditions. So if it comes to breaking bounds and choosing or changing from a profitable career to something you feel more passionate and happy about, that's freedom. So

Rosie (31:41)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (31:57)

So I think it can come at different stages in people's lives. And if they are happy doing whatever they are doing, they don't have to change or do anything but try and just be better and better, whatever appeals to them. But I think to be able to do and to achieve what you want to achieve is to me freedom. What do you think? How do you define freedom?

Rosie (32:26)

How dare you

ask me? It's such an abstract concept to me. And I need to go back and listen to the episodes on the few occasions guests have turned this question to me because I think it changes every time. But I know there must be a common thread here. I, in my opinion, freedom is more so a feeling when I'm...

Feeling aligned. And it's, you know, what does alignment feel like? To me, it's when I feel content. And yes, there's stresses. Yes, life is still difficult. It's not going to get rid of any of that, but it just feels right. So for example, living in my van, I can't explain to you why, but it feels right. I feel very grounded. And to me, that is freedom.

Vasu Tolia (33:10)

Mm-hmm.

Rosie (33:23)

And it allows me location freedom, but I don't think that's necessarily what I'm referring to when I say freedom. It's just a feeling and it's going to change throughout my life how that freedom looks.

Vasu Tolia (33:39)

Yes, I think we all evolve as time passes and our emotions evolve, our beliefs and concepts evolve. So it's like a moving target. Like you said, it's very abstract, but like you define it a certain way, I define it a certain way. But in all, it's what gives us the, letting us be what we want to be.

Rosie (33:46)

you

Yes.

Yes, letting us be what we want to be. I think what can scare people is it can be messy and it's unknown.

Vasu Tolia (34:09)

you

Yes, absolutely. I mean, there are risks that you are taking and it takes a lot of courage to do that.

Rosie (34:26)

And one key message that's really stood out to me from this conversation is there's no one way to embrace your creativity. And there's not one way that it looks, it could be doing painting and drawing, but it could be like your husband and playing golf. It could be like me and doing a podcast. It might be, I don't know, meditation, spending time in nature. So I think.

Vasu Tolia (34:47)

Yes.

Rosie (34:54)

Trying different things is a great way to find what works for you.

Vasu Tolia (35:02)

Absolutely.

Rosie (35:03)

So I encourage our listeners, go and explore, go have an adventure, try some different things. Wassel, did it take you a while to land on art?

Did you try some different things? Yeah.

Vasu Tolia (35:21)

Thank you.

It did. And initially, I felt like an imposter that, you know, I was not good enough. Because when I went to the shows and I saw the people winning prizes and mine didn't and all. But then I was not realizing that I may be chapter one of my journey and they were at chapter 15. They had been doing it for a while. and perception of art is very

personal and subjective. You know, there are no strict guidelines and criteria by which one evaluates art. You know, it's something like a gut feeling. One juror in a show may reject my piece, and if I submit the same piece to another exhibition, I may get an award. So it's something about

Rosie (36:03)

Hmm.

Mmm!

Vasu Tolia (36:22)

on this, during this journey not to give up and feel disheartened also and accept some of these negative outcomes as they come because not everything in life goes as we want to plan, you know. And so you have to brace yourself to accept some of these failures and if there are more more positives than negatives then you must be doing the right thing.

Rosie (36:37)

So true.

Mmm.

Yeah. There's no strict criteria for what the right thing is, which I think goes against what we're taught in school and sometimes how we're brought up with our family. In school, it's very much, this is the right answer and anything else is wrong. It's quite rare to find a class or a teacher that encourages creative thinking.

Vasu Tolia (37:04)

Yes.

Yes.

Rosie (37:20)

How do you think we encourage and influence society to embrace creativity more?

Vasu Tolia (37:31)

I believe that creativity is a universal human need. Everyone must practice it and do it in a certain way, or whatever way appeals to them, like trying to find their path. Whether it's in single career or dual career or sequential careers, who knows? They have to find it themselves.

Rosie (37:36)

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (37:59)

Breaking free of the mold and be feeling courageous about being able to do it and balance the internal conflicts and the external inputs, even if they are negative, is another way.

then evolution of freedom is by shifting the pressure from doing everything at once to embracing the idea of having choices over time to execute so that you don't over push yourself, that you become so stressed and more negative items, you know, outcomes come.

And that's where I feel that I have found an issue of healing through art. So I've just changed my perspective from healing by medicine to healing through art. Because I have first-hand experienced it, observed it. And it shapes my philosophy about this concept. And I just want to tell the whole world about it.

Rosie (38:48)

Yes.

Yeah, I think it's beautiful. I'd love to know if any of these insights or discoveries you've made along your creative journey have surprised you or were you expecting art to be so healing?

Vasu Tolia (39:19)

When I started, I didn't. I really didn't know about art therapy, although it exists from 1940s, as I'm doing more and more research into healing with art and all that, because I'm trying to position myself in such a way that maybe I can conduct some research into it, working with a neurofiner. And I'm so thankful to you for

Rosie (39:27)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Vasu Tolia (39:49)

Having this opportunity to tell your audience that positioning oneself by actively designing their own freedom professionally, creatively, philanthropically, they can navigate identity shifts, break traditions, and conventions, and build a mission-driven creativity practice.

Rosie (40:08)

Mmm.

Vasu Tolia (40:15)

that is as impactful as it is fulfilling.

Rosie (40:22)

I need to go back and replay that bit. I think it's so, so powerful. You said actively creating your freedom. We're playing a very active role. It's not just going to fall on your lap, at least in my opinion, it's not. You need to actively pursue that.

Vasu Tolia (40:41)

you have to work towards it.

Rosie (40:43)

Yeah, yeah.

Vasu Tolia (40:45)

As you and I, have both found out.

Rosie (40:48)

Yeah. Yeah.

well Sue, thank you so much for this conversation. It's been really beautiful to hear your journey on this. And it surprised me how you've managed to bridge the gap between medicine and art. Or perhaps there wasn't such a gap in at all. Really? I hadn't considered that.

Vasu Tolia (41:14)

I'm so glad you asked that question. But to be honest with you, like I told you, I think I had some creativity in me from the beginning. But it was more focused towards the science of research than anything else. But I feel that having this empathy for people, which is really a must for every physician,

Rosie (41:17)

haha

Mm-mm.

Vasu Tolia (41:42)

helped me mold my artistic practice more. So I really feel very grateful to have had this second chance and to mold my healing practice from medicine into art. And I just feel great about it.

Rosie (42:01)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I think it's really cool, honestly. And again, thank you for this conversation. I can't wait to hear people's thoughts on this episode. Maybe they won't find it as surprising as me. I don't know, but I think it's been fabulous. So thank you for giving me a fresh perspective. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you.

Vasu Tolia (42:28)

Thank you so