85: Talking grief with Angela Clement

Rosie (00:47)

Welcome back to the Pursuit of Freedom podcast. Joining us today is Angela Clement. She was originally a principal, an educator of 35 years, but Angela pivoted to becoming a grief coach after losing her husband to colon cancer in 2021. Angela's on a mission these days to push

back against the grieve forever kind of mindset or messaging that's out there and show people that they can live a full and joyful life after experiencing loss. So I think this is going to be quite a unique perspective for everybody. And before we dive in, I just want to give a content warning. We're going to be diving deep into grief and other related topics. So if this is something you're not ready to listen to.

please just come back another time when it feels safe to do so, or maybe you need to skip it altogether. That is cool. And with that aside, Angela, I just want to say thank you so much for joining us today.

Angela (01:46)

Yeah, well, thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here.

Rosie (01:50)

Yeah, I'm excited

to have you here. And it sounds a little bit weird to say I'm excited to talk about grief, but I am. I actually am. And somewhere I'd love to start, which might sound like a basic question, is what even is grief?

Angela (02:06)

you.

Good question. So it's been defined many ways in different dictionaries. Some say it's a deep sorrow, you know, it's the loss of a loved one. But over the years, I've kind of developed my own definition of grief. And I think everybody's grief is a little bit different. But for me, it really was a process that

Rosie (02:15)

Mmm.

Angela (02:39)

helped me heal from the loss of my husband and many other losses that I've had. You know, it doesn't have to be the loss of a person. It could be all kinds of things, right? But it really is a process and I believe it is a sacred process that's given to us at birth so that we can let go of all these things we have to let go of in life.

Rosie (02:46)

Mmmmm

Angela (03:07)

right from when we're born, when we have to leave the womb that starts there and it continues on. There's lots of things we have to let go of. And so for me, it became a real awakening into who I am because you kind of lose your identity when you lose something because we often attach ourselves, right? We have this ego that attaches itself to certain

identities like I am the principal or I am the wife or I am the mom or whatever. And when these things are taken away or when we leave our job or when we move, we have to let those things go. And it's hard because it's part of who we are or that's how we feel. But through the process of grief, I found out that I'm much more than that.

Rosie (04:01)

Right?

Angela (04:07)

you know, spiritually, we are whole people, whole spirits. And this human existence is just another aspect of who we are. And so it's really deep. And grace will take you to those deep places, because it's, it's, you know, there's a lot that comes up.

Rosie (04:26)

Yeah.

It is, and something I want to ask because your answer is very deep and philosophical and something that I have strong opinions on, but I'm going to try not to bias you, is the five stages of grief. I'm looking down because I just went to look up what they are on my phone. So for those who don't know, there's this concept of the five stages of grief and they are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

Angela (04:45)

Yeah.

Rosie (05:00)

And this model has been around for quite a while. So Angela, that kind of definition or framework of grief sounds quite different to what you just said. So what are your thoughts on the, on the, the five stages of grief? Do they even have a place?

Angela (05:11)

Yes.

Well, they were actually created by a lady who did research, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. But the research that she was doing was really for people who were terminally ill and dying. And so these were the stages that they went through. And so it really wasn't meant for grief in losing someone.

Rosie (05:34)

you

Yeah, right.

Angela (05:48)

And so

it's completely different. And even though, you know, we might very well go through many of those things, grief, it's quite common. But it's not a linear process. You know, you don't go through that and then, you know, you don't do anger and then bargaining and then, you know, it's not like that. And so, yeah, and that's what we were taught. You know, that's the only thing I knew about grief was the five stages of grief. was it.

Rosie (06:05)

Right, right.

Mm-hmm.

Angela (06:17)

Well, it's a lot more than that.

Rosie (06:21)

It is, yeah. Yeah.

I'm curious to hear, because I mentioned before, you lost your husband, Blaine, I think it is, isn't it? Have I got that right? Yeah. So in, in 2021, so roughly four years ago, has your understanding of grief shifted since then? Are we always sort of someone who was across, this is what grief is and you know, this is my space.

Angela (06:32)

Yes, that's right.

Yes.

Yeah

You know, this definition of grief has transpired over many years of listening to others tell their story, their grief story, and listening to others define grief. Because lots of people define it in different ways. And rightfully so, because we all have these different journeys that we go through, because we all have different relationships with what our loss is, right? So it's so different.

Rosie (06:55)

Hehehehe

Yes. Yes.

Angela (07:23)

And our whole background, you know, I believe that the emotions that are coming up have messages and they are healing for whatever we need at that time. It's a very divine timing. The healing is specifically for us and what we need at that specific time. So I always tell people really pay attention to those emotions that are coming up. They're intense and especially in the beginning, they're heavy.

Rosie (07:36)

Hmm.

y'all

Angela (07:53)

They all have strong messages of healing for you if you get curious about what's underneath of all that.

Rosie (08:00)

And you've mentioned a couple of times this concept of healing through grief. And this is going to sound silly, but I had actually never, never thought of grief as a healing process, but it, it is. It just makes so much sense. But never, ever, ever have I thought of it that way. And you know, I've lost both my parents and there's a lot of grieving there.

In my case anyway, like you said, grief is different for everybody, but I had a very positive, loving relationship with both my parents. And yeah, grief is a healing journey. So I just want to say thank you for putting it like that. Cause my understanding just shifted a bit.

Angela (08:47)

Yeah, well, and so did mine. Over the years, it really changed. But yes, I believe it is a process. And it's not just sorrow, it's not just sadness, it's a lot more than that.

Rosie (08:49)

Yeah!

Mmm.

Let's talk more about that. Cause I think a lot of people associate sadness with grief. That's all it is. Just another word for sad.

Angela (09:08)

Thank you.

Thanks.

Yeah, yeah, and I thought that too. But then I realized that we really need to have a different perspective on it all. Because if we see grief as sadness, we're looking at it as something we don't want. I don't want sadness. I'm not interested in sadness. But if we look at it as a process that's helping us heal, then we can embrace that process.

Rosie (09:25)

Mm-hmm.

Thank you.

Angela (09:43)

And yes, part of that process is having emotions such as sadness or anger or jealousy. Those things will come up. And as I said before, they have purpose. There's intention behind those things coming up. It's all for your healing. And so, it's if you can embrace the process of grief, rather than pushing it away and saying, is not what I want, take it in as

Rosie (09:48)

Mm-hmm.

Angela (10:12)

almost like a healing bomb, you know, it's like, yeah, yeah. I mean, I wanted to say medicine, that has its own connotations with it. It's just embracing it as something that is sacred and given to us to help us. so pushing it away is the one thing that you don't want to do.

Rosie (10:16)

Yeah, that's a good description.

Mmm.

you

Yeah.

There's something I really want to dive into this because the work you do and you've even published a a key theme I've picked up on is that you really help people to honor their grief, but also move forward to something greater.

How on earth? Like, I don't even know where to start with this. So talk us through it a little bit.

Angela (11:12)

Yeah, so when I started, I just like everybody else, you're devastated. You've the rugs been pulled out from underneath of you. And it's really hard and you start to question everything that you've ever believed in that you've ever understood. It's like, is there a God? Where is my loved one? Why am I here? You know, all of that comes up and

It's like soul searching, trying to figure out what's going on. yeah, that's the whole healing process. It's part of it. And so I went through that. I totally went through that. And all those emotions were coming up and I had no idea what to do with them. They were so intense. Some days I didn't even want to get out of bed. I didn't want to, I didn't care.

Rosie (12:01)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Angela (12:09)

I would have

rather just left the earth. Like really, why bother? But there was a piece of me, and I think there's a piece in everybody, that hopes that they will get better, that they will feel better at some point. And that was me. I was hoping that somebody would tell me that I wasn't going to grieve for a lifetime, that I wasn't going to just carry on and learn to hold this grief, because that's a lot of the message that you get.

Rosie (12:36)

Hmm.

Angela (12:39)

but rather start to live a new life and start to live a life that's joyful and fulfilling again. And it's taken a little bit. It takes time. You know, it's not like it happens overnight, but I had energy healers. I had a grief coach. You know, I enlisted people to help me through the process and I interviewed

Rosie (12:52)

Yeah

Angela (13:08)

you know, a hundred and some people experts on grief, right? So I learned a lot through that process too. And I think it really expedited the process for me, which everybody has their own timeline. I'm not saying that you should be over it in any length of time. Everybody has their own process. Like I said, you each have your own sacred process and you have to follow.

Rosie (13:11)

Wow. Yeah.

Hmm.

Mmm.

Right.

Angela (13:38)

that. But there is, you know, there is hope. There is a life that can be joyful and fulfilling again. And when I look back on my life with Blaine, I don't look back on it with sadness anymore. That's not, that's not how I feel. It's, it's more like gratitude and appreciation and love for that time that we were together.

Rosie (14:00)

Hmm.

Angela (14:07)

And I truly feel that. And when I think back on our memories, I just smile. You know, it's not a sadness like that anymore. So it is possible.

Rosie (14:12)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Angela (14:20)

Yeah.

Rosie (14:24)

So I want to unpack this more. So there is hope, you know, it's not just sadness, right? But do you still feel or experience sometimes those feelings of sadness and despair? Do they still come up?

Angela (14:39)

Very rarely. And if they're coming up, it's usually for something else now. Because that's life, right? So if I have new emotions coming up, it's usually a new circumstance that I'm going through that I have to let go of something else that's carrying on in my life. So it's... But I don't find that they talk about triggers or...

Rosie (14:40)

Mmm.

Mm-mm.

Angela (15:09)

grief bombs, you know, everybody has a different term for that and some people don't like. But, you know, when you get caught off guard by an emotion, you see, like I saw Blaine Silver F-350, I thought his truck was going by and, you know, it brings back all these memories about the truck that we purchased together and how he loved it and whatever. And it brings up those emotions. But that doesn't happen like that anymore.

very rarely. And so I think each time though that that happened, I embraced it with the help of my grief coach and my energy healers. I learned to embrace those and to maybe it happened during the day, but I would revisit it at night and I would journal about it and I would cry and I would, you know, internalize all of that. And then

Rosie (15:40)

Hmm

Right.

Angela (16:08)

change my thought around it, you know? And so, and then once you've done that, you're moving along again, right? Until the next one kind of thing. Yeah, yeah.

Rosie (16:10)

Mmm.

Yeah, it's

interesting. It's been, how long has it been? I think it'll be 12 years this year since dad died. And this concept of triggers or grief bombs, so many other words for it. I mean, I get triggered, whatever the word you want to be, I do get caught off guard. But what I think,

has happened over time. Like initially it just felt like I was in this storm in the ocean and I was just crashing around me. was out of control and things just settle down a bit. And every now and then there's a big wave that dumps me and I go, holy fuck. I like, what the, where did that come from? But I, think in my experience, and this just speaks to how it's different for everyone. think this grieving journey, these

Angela (17:13)

you

Rosie (17:14)

big waves dumping me and shoving me around. They don't happen as often anymore. They do still catch me off guard sometimes, because I'm just humming along life and woohoo. But I'm better at anticipating what might make me.

Angela (17:25)

Yeah.

Rosie (17:32)

you know, sometimes it's almost like it transports me back to that time when he died and it just takes my body there. But I'm getting better at going, okay, I'm going into this scenario that might bring up some feelings about dad. Some of them might not be great. for me, I've never really tried to articulate it before, but it's just...

I think the danger maybe is some people might think, Angela and Rosie are dismissing the grief. But I think what it is is it change, the grief changes over time, whether or not you want to call it grief. But my grief today is very different to what it was the day dad died. Totally. And it would not be the stereotypical definition of grief, what I am today. Like there's so many fond memories I have. There's lots of laughter and just.

thinking back to the good times and yeah, I can go back to that dark space and relive what happened, but you know, doesn't really serve me.

Angela (18:38)

No, no, it doesn't. And I think that's part of, you know, learning about the mind and your mind is trying to keep you safe. And for a long time, it thinks that what you've done every day for so ever long, that's what's kept you alive. And if you deviate from that, then

Rosie (18:42)

Yeah

Hmm

Yes, yes.

Angela (19:07)

You're unsafe.

Rosie (19:08)

Right? Right! That's so true!

Yeah! Yeah!

Angela (19:14)

Yeah, and it will take you back to the past. You will go back there. I guess what I've learned is that when I go back there, it's almost like rewriting the story. It's like changing your thoughts around it. So and you can get people to help you with that, right? You know, can read code. Yeah, yeah, like it's it's pretty hard.

Rosie (19:29)

Yes.

Right, you don't have to go through this alone, yeah.

Angela (19:43)

when you're in the depths of grief to just rewrite the program. know, it's not that simple. Yet, it's profound because once you've done it once or twice, you kind of get how it works, right? And each time you go into that darkness or that sorrow, you know you're going to come out the other side. You you might take some time. It might take

Rosie (19:51)

No.

Angela (20:12)

little bit of time to move through and you might have to get some support. But once you've done it a few times, you just, you just know.

Rosie (20:15)

Hmm.

Mmm... Mmm...

Angela (20:23)

gonna be okay.

Yeah, and then you can tell your mind, I'm safe, I'm okay.

Rosie (20:31)

Yeah, I'm okay. That's right. Things have changed a lot, but hey, I'm safe. It's okay. Things just look a little bit different.

Angela (20:36)

Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you look at the unknown differently because we have a lot of fear of the unknown. But you look at the unknown as possibility. know, anything can happen in the future. And so, you know, how do you want to write that? What do you want it to look like? And you start to focus on that and not, my gosh, you know.

Rosie (20:48)

Mm.

Hmm.

Angela (21:08)

All kinds of things could happen, terrible things could happen. That's the mind telling you it's not safe. Yeah.

Rosie (21:15)

yeah, that

and that is terrifying. It is actually terrifying.

Angela (21:20)

Yes, yes. And this is anxiety, you know. It's a real thing and it is scary. I totally get it. Been there too.

Rosie (21:23)

Mm.

Mm.

Right. And I think it's probably a normal part of the journey, but I see, I see some people who never get through that. They're stuck in that. And it's, I mean, it's really heartbreaking to see. And there's someone, I wouldn't necessarily call them a friend, but somebody in my life, sort of an acquaintance, I guess you'd call it. And they lost their dad very suddenly, a couple of years ago. And.

Angela (21:37)

Yeah.

Rosie (22:05)

I don't know, they're in that stage and I don't even know what to say to this person. I feel like saying to him, if I said, there's hope, I don't think that would necessarily help him. And also when you're the person in that dark space, someone telling you there's hope, at least when it happened to me, I'd just think, piss off, what would you know?

Angela (22:09)

Good.

Yeah.

Rosie (22:33)

That's, that was my reaction. So what

I want to hear from you is what do we say to someone in those early days when they're in the context of when they've lost a loved one?

Angela (22:41)

Thank

Yeah, well, it's okay. It's absolutely okay. And sometimes you just want to be in that space and you don't want out. That's the other thing. You know, there was lots of times where I was like, yeah, I don't want to feel better. I want to be miserable. I want to stay in this misery for as long as I want to be miserable. And that's okay. The only thing is, is that at some point you're going to want out because that gets old.

Rosie (22:56)

Mmm.

Right?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Angela (23:16)

And when you're in it, you know, be in it then. You know, just go right into it. That's what I always say, you know, and you don't have to do that alone. You can have someone with you while you're in that depths of despair and just you want to be miserable and bent about it. Go ahead. Go ahead and do it.

Rosie (23:16)

Yep. It's not sustainable, that's for sure.

Yeah, yeah.

Angela (23:45)

You know, and there will be a time where you're going to be like, okay, I've had enough of that. I want to feel better. How can I do it? Right.

Rosie (23:45)

Mmm.

Right. And you're ready to move

forward and I guess with the grief or whatever you want to say onto the next stage, if you want to call it that, I don't call it that, but it does shift. I want to know though, cause you said you don't have to do it alone. And I think where a lot of people's minds goes like, I'll go to a psychologist or a counselor. And this happened to me.

So I was 21 when dad died. It was a freak accident, very sudden. And obviously was having a very hard time. And the GP said to me, you need to go see a grief counselor. And I was just like, yep, okay. Like, yep, off I went. This lady sat me down. She pulled out her whiteboard and a marker, drew up the five stages of grief and announced to me that I was in denial. I was furious. I never went back. I thought, what the?

So I've had a negative experience on that, but can you share with us who could we go to for support?

Angela (25:03)

Well, certainly, I mean, therapists, counselors, but grief coaches are specially trained to work with people in grief. And I didn't know about grief coach. I didn't understand that there was even such a thing. But my grief coach, the first time I met with her, I was absolutely terrified. I didn't want to share my story. I knew I was going to cry. I didn't want to cry in front of her.

Rosie (25:15)

Mmm. Mmm.

Yeah.

Angela (25:33)

And the only reason why I went to her is because I just didn't know what else to do. And also she had a quote on Facebook that said, some people say you will grieve for lifetime. I choose otherwise. I choose the path from hurt to hope to healing every day. And that really inspired me because I thought if you could go through that and she lost two children, a brother, yeah.

Rosie (25:38)

Mmm... Mmm...

Wow.

Angela (26:01)

So she had, and she went through a divorce, so she had all kinds of different grief. And I thought, well, if you can go through that and come out and live a joyful, happy life, then I must be able to do it too. know? And so, but I also did the discovery session with her. You know, I did the 30 minutes. Most coaches do give that, or therapists or counselors, they will give you that half hour to kind of.

Rosie (26:17)

Mm. Mm.

Angela (26:29)

See if it's a fit and see if you resonate with them because that's the biggest thing. A therapist can be a well recommended therapist, but if you don't connect with them, then it's not the same. You really need to to feel comfortable. You need to feel like you know what they're saying makes sense. You need to be able to trust them. And so I always tell people, you know what, if you go and it's not working.

Find somebody else because there's lots out there. There's loads of them. Yeah, so, and you know, if you watch my podcast or your podcast, you know, you can meet new people and you'll know if you resonate with them or not. You know, people will know if they listen to me and they think, wow, you know, that makes sense to me. Or I'd like to hear more. Well then, you know.

Rosie (27:00)

Yes.

Yeah.

yeah.

Angela (27:29)

we might be a good fit. And so the next step is being brave enough to book that first.

Rosie (27:38)

Yeah, yeah, that bravery and courage, it is scary. And you know, I have never worked with a grief coach and it wasn't really until meeting you that I went, yeah. Like I wasn't, I kind of knew it was a thing, but not really. And I just go, huh, yeah, these people have lived it. They've experienced it. They're specialists in it. It's in a different way to sort of a traditional therapist, but I actually think.

I see more value in it. Like working with someone like you, I'm like, okay, I can trust Angela. She has lived this. She has been where I have been and look where she is now. Rather than somebody, actually, I want your thoughts on this. This is something that just makes my blood boil. Maybe it's just me. And this has happened multiple times, but one that's coming to mind is the day mum died.

someone called me to talk to mum and it was just a couple of hours after mum had died and I said look you know mum just died this morning and sort of gave it quick this is what happened first thing they said she's in a better place and in my head I'm going excuse me she's in a better place that's the first thing that comes out of your mouth like I've just lost my mother who I love dearly so it just

I didn't say anything to this person, internally it's just like this hot fiery storm. And I don't think this person was trying to dismiss my feelings. I think they were trying to make me feel better, but it didn't do that.

Angela (29:12)

Yeah.

No,

no it doesn't. It doesn't. I don't care where they are. They're not here. And that's not, you know, it's like, I, yeah, sure. He is in a better place, but is he because he should be with me? You know, there's that, you're still longing for them. don't, you know, they're not here. So yeah, it doesn't help.

Rosie (29:29)

Exactly.

Yeah, and I don't think there's necessarily the perfect thing to say to someone when they lose a loved one, but what I write, you can't.

Angela (29:57)

Well, you can't fix it. You can't

say anything that's gonna take the pain away. It's not, you can't. So, no, that's right, just don't try. But you can be with them and you can say, I'm thinking about you, I know this must be hard. Even just some people will say, well, is there anything I can do?

Rosie (30:07)

Don't try.

Yeah.

Angela (30:27)

I don't know if I would ask that. I would just do stuff, you know? Be with them. Send them texts. Remind them that you're there. And that is a huge support all by itself. Remember those anniversaries, know, the birthdays, the death anniversary, all that stuff. Put it into your calendar. And when those days come around, message that person on purpose.

Rosie (30:32)

Yes. Yes.

Hmm.

Yes.

Yes.

Angela (30:57)

say

I'm of you today because those are painful days. Yeah.

Rosie (31:01)

Oh yeah.

Hmm. Totally agree. You know what you were saying? Don't necessarily ask them what you can help with. Just do it. When people would say that to me, I'm like, oh yeah. And they say, let me know. I never let them know. How do you know what you want or need or you're just trying to function. Get out of bed, have a shower, whatever it is. So yeah, just do something.

Angela (31:16)

Yeah. And how do you know what you want? Yeah.

Yeah.

Rosie (31:30)

Hey, you might not get it right every time, but so what? The other person's going to know you're thinking of them. And just sending that message, it means the world. You feel less alone. You really do.

Angela (31:41)

Yeah. And just

little, little things like at Christmas time, I had a couple of friends come pick me up and we went and looked at the lights, Christmas lights. It was wonderful. I totally enjoyed it. I mean, on another day, maybe I wouldn't, but they would have been okay with me saying, no, I don't want to go today, you know? But the offer was there and I could say yes or no. And

Rosie (31:53)

Yeah. Yeah.

Angela (32:10)

Yeah, it's just, it's actually just reaching your hand out and saying, here's something I can offer, if you like.

Rosie (32:17)

Yeah,

yeah, yeah. yeah, and you mentioned the death anniversary and the birthdays and maybe other major life events that come up. I think, could have this wrong, but I think people must be afraid to bring it up. They don't wanna make you sad. They don't wanna bring up the memories.

Angela (32:39)

yes.

Rosie (32:44)

And it kind of makes me laugh. I'm like, you really think it's on you to bring up those memories? You think I'm not thinking about it already? So if you're someone, you you're trying to support a friend, acknowledge those days. Like send the message. It means so much. I rarely have people reach out and in fact,

Yeah, over time it's less and less, but even, you know, with my ex, she, we were together eight years, I think maybe once she acknowledged the death anniversary or a birthday. And it actually hurt when there's someone that close to you who just sort of brushes it aside. But then I didn't feel comfortable bringing it up because I'm like, they clearly don't want to talk.

I don't even know how you navigate that. Is there something, how should we navigate that? Like how should I navigate that? If I'm getting upset, someone I really care about in my life isn't acknowledging those days. How should I approach that?

Angela (33:57)

Well, there's a couple of things. I mean, you can say just exactly what you said, you know, I'm feeling a little hurt because you haven't reached out and it would really help me if you could, you know, you can do that. But sometimes people are just not comfortable with it. It doesn't matter what you do. And so your relationships will change. And that's happened with many, many, many

Rosie (34:02)

Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

Angela (34:27)

people that I've had interviews with, their friendships have changed. I know from my own experience, friends that I thought would be there for me weren't, but then ones that I thought, wow, where did you come from? But I think it's people that they've been through it and they get it and they...

Rosie (34:41)

Mmm.

Right! Yeah! Yeah...

Angela (34:55)

They know how to acknowledge you in your grief. They know how to acknowledge your pain and they know it's okay to tell the story about your loved one that they remember. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Because that crying is a good cry. It feels so good to hear those stories, right?

Rosie (35:04)

Yes, I love it when people tell stories about my parents. I love it, even if it makes me cry, I love it.

Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Angela (35:25)

Yeah, those are the people that will stand beside you. And I know like for myself with us losing a spouse, sometimes then your couples, you know, will distance themselves because now you're no longer two, you're by yourself and they don't feel comfortable having you as the third person. Some are okay, but some aren't. So then you lose those relationships. So

Rosie (35:29)

you

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Angela (35:54)

One of the things that you have to do as the griever is you have to advocate for yourself. And you have to figure out what feels good to you. Does it feel good to have a social outing once a week or twice a week and have the rest of the time alone? Or do I need more or do I need less? But there has to be a balance between you interacting with others and being alone.

Rosie (36:00)

Yeah.

Angela (36:22)

because some of us can get sucked in and stay alone and that's not healthy. And some of us can get busy and start socializing and never have any time to process and that's not healthy either. So it's like finding the balance between the two is really important.

Rosie (36:26)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a journey in itself, right?

Angela (36:44)

Yeah,

it takes time because, you know, I overdid it for a while and then had to back off and then, you know, it's, yeah, yeah, it is.

Rosie (36:49)

Mmm, mmm.

It's balancing act for sure.

I want to go back though. You've mentioned you interviewed over a hundred people talking about grief. What? Tell me more. What made you do this? And kind of what, what were some of the standout things? Because I haven't done that, but it sounds fascinating.

Angela (37:10)

Thanks.

Yeah, well, I stumbled into it, actually. I was interested in energy healing. I signed up for a class and it was a whole bunch of different modalities. And so we were introduced to all these different modalities for about three months. And then the last three months of the class, it was marketing. So her challenge or project was to create an online summit.

Rosie (37:19)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Angela (37:45)

and to interview people in your interest area. And so for me, of course, at the time, I had only been six months into my grief. And so I was interested in the process of grief, like what's happening here. And so I interviewed, you know, not only counselors and therapists and death doulas, but mediums, spiritual healers,

Rosie (37:50)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well...

Angela (38:14)

animal communicators, like, I interviewed all kinds of them. And so in the first summit, I interviewed 27. And I put them out. And it was so scary because I interviewed people I didn't know, right? So I sent out invitations to people I didn't know to a summit, I wasn't sure I could pull off like I'd never done it, right? But people were so gracious to, you know, give me their time and to

Rosie (38:16)

Mmm.

Wow.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Angela (38:43)

get the word out about grief. And so when I did that first summit, 1200 people signed up. And so I had to do it again. I did it again and I did it four times. And so there was over a hundred people and now I have a podcast. And so I've done 50, just over 50 interviews on the podcast now. So I've got this great

Rosie (38:45)

you

Wow.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Angela (39:14)

breadth of knowledge now through all of these stories. And all of them are people who have gone through, my gosh, some of the most traumatic things. And yet they've come through on the other side, you know, able to understand themselves better, know who they are. Some of them have acquired all kinds of spiritual gifts.

Rosie (39:39)

Mmm.

Angela (39:41)

And they're sharing and helping others. And I think that's a big part of the healing too, actually, is helping others. And I think that's what helped me, was I knew that in telling my story and doing the work I was doing, I was helping others. And when you help others, you heal yourself at the same time.

Rosie (39:57)

Mmm.

It's so true. So true. think sharing my story has been incredibly healing. And for someone else, it might not be starting a podcast or holding a summit or interviewing over a hundred people, but somewhere in there.

sharing your story, owning your narrative, just reaching out. It is incredibly healing because it's kind of bigger than yourself.

Mmm.

Angela (40:35)

And I mean,

I started out just journaling. know, was writing everything down and then somebody said, well, why don't you just post it? Which was scary, right? Like, but I did. And then there was people that said, gee, I really like reading that. You know, I like listening to your story. So then I did more. And yeah, so it doesn't have to be that. It could be all kinds of things. You know, you could.

Rosie (40:38)

Right, right.

Mmm!

you

Angela (41:05)

plant a garden in memory of your loved one and share the vegetables and stuff with other people and help them that way. I mean, it doesn't have to be that, but helping others is very healing.

Rosie (41:08)

You're right.

Hmm. That resonates for sure. I think the worst thing we can do is just keep it all bottled up inside. That has never served me. always just goes terribly wrong whenever I try to do that. I haven't done it in a while, but in the early days it's like, yep, I'm just going to shove those feelings down. don't know. And then it just comes out even worse than before. Yeah.

Angela (41:42)

Yeah, like a volcano.

You can't hold that. And we do it in all kinds of ways. We get busy. That's what I did. I work. Or we drink, or we shop, or we gamble, or we find all kinds of ways. We scroll through our phones. We watch things on YouTube. There's all kinds of ways to avoid

Rosie (41:50)

Mmm.

totally. Yeah.

Uh-huh.

Angela (42:12)

that emotion that's coming up.

Rosie (42:16)

It's an interesting one. I'm great at keeping myself busy. The day after dad died, I went into university for class. I was like, no, I have to go in. I got a class. And I remember, you know, there were some mature age students in there. So I was 21. And one, you know, a couple of them I was friends with and I think they were in their late forties or something. I could tell something was off and they just were lining up for coffee. And they just said, Rosie, are you okay?

I burst out into tears. Oh, my dad just died yesterday. They were so shocked. They didn't know what to say. They just sort of gave me a hug and then said, Rosie, you need to go home. Like, what are you doing here? It's okay. It's okay. Just go home. And so I went home. I needed someone to say that though. And my mum's way of sort of coping in the early days, dad was renovating our house.

Angela (42:48)

you

You

Rosie (43:15)

before he died. And so she threw herself into project managing that and getting it finished. And when I think back to when mum died, I was 27 and my way of coping, what did I do? I enrolled in an MBA and I graduated as valedictorian. That was my way of just keeping, like what? And people say, I'm so proud of you. And I sort of reflect on it and go, yeah, but was that really the best thing for me?

I don't think it was.

Angela (43:46)

No, and I mean,

I think to a point, you know, you want to have things to do. But you need that time every day, really in the beginning, you need to set aside maybe a couple hours to just kind of sit with yourself and allow those emotions to come up and process them and get curious about what's happening. Maybe get some support. But yeah, I did the same thing. I just got really bad. But

Rosie (43:52)

Mmm.

Surprise!

Angela (44:16)

But then at some point, like you, it was like, my gosh, I can't, I can't keep doing this. Like, this isn't working for me. It's not. Yeah.

Rosie (44:24)

Right. Yeah.

But I guess in the beginning it was kind of, it was my way of coping and it sounds like it was for you when it, kind of works for a while. It's like, you can't sort of just keep busy and running along forever. It's going to catch up with you.

Angela (44:32)

Yes.

Yes, it does.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I always say like, it's okay. You know, you're getting ready for the service. You're doing your writing, you know, the obituary or whatever you're doing is okay. And especially in that initial time, if you can kind of keep floating along, but you'll know at some point it's not getting better, you know. And then you need to stop and kind of look at it.

Rosie (44:43)

Yeah.

Right, right.

Yes.

you

Mm-hmm.

Angela (45:11)

I think at the beginning when everything's so overwhelming sometimes it is okay. Yeah.

Rosie (45:14)

It can really help, can't it? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think there's a prescription either. What worked for me might not work for somebody else.

Angela (45:25)

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, we all find our own way.

Rosie (45:27)

Mm.

Mm. Yeah. And that, in a way, makes it hard too. There's no...

Angela (45:34)

Yeah, that makes it worse.

Rosie (45:35)

I can't, yeah, I can't just go

to someone I see suffering. Hey, here are the steps to feel better. No. How helpful.

Angela (45:41)

Yeah.

Yeah, and you'll feel better in a year or two years. You can't,

yeah, you can't, right? That was the one thing I wanted from my grief coach. I was like, how long is this gonna take? She's like, it doesn't work like that. Yeah, so was like, really?

Rosie (45:56)

As long as it takes.

Damn it. Yeah. One thing I've found is the journey of self-discovery through grieving has been profound. Did you go through a journey of self-discovery? Yeah.

Angela (46:15)

absolutely.

I had no idea who I was. You know, you don't, you just associate yourself with all the things, your career, your family, you know, and then when it gets right down to who you are and what you want, you kind of, somehow in life, you get busy and you forget what really feels good to you. And yeah, it's...

Rosie (46:43)

Mmm, you too.

Angela (46:49)

It is, it's a journey back to self. It really is. Yeah.

Rosie (46:52)

Yes, yes.

A journey back to self. Totally, totally. yeah, I love that so much. It's sort of almost like, it is a bit of an identity crisis. And I think especially for people like you who have lost a spouse because your lives are so intertwined, right? And I just think back to when mum lost dad and I go fricking hell.

Like that is huge. And she had, my sister's nine years younger than me. So my sister was.

Angela (47:25)

Alright.

Rosie (47:31)

11, 12 when dad died. So mum had a 12 year old and then me a young adult who thinks they're really grown up, but really still needs support, right? She had a lot to juggle and at the time I wasn't really thinking of her needs. Not that that was my responsibility, but now I'm older. go crap. She just had the world on her shoulders doing the best she could.

Mmm.

Angela (48:00)

Yeah, it is

hard because they're with you every single day. And so your mind is expecting them to come home for dinner. Your mind is expecting the call. Your mind is, you know, and it takes a while to develop those new pathways for your brain. When you talk about Mary Frances O'Connor does a lot of research in this area of the grieving brain and for people to understand that, that, you know, you're not going crazy, but

Rosie (48:24)

Mmm.

Angela (48:30)

When you learned your multiplication facts, it took some time and relearning those pathways takes some time. It's not an automatic. So you gotta be really patient with yourself as you're moving through that.

Rosie (48:33)

It's true. Yeah.

No.

and kind, kind to yourself.

Angela (48:48)

Yes, yes.

Rosie (48:53)

I have a final question. And this is something I ask every single guest and the answers are always different. So Angela, what does freedom mean to you?

Angela (49:07)

That's a great question.

I think freedom is knowing who you are and what you want. And that's not an easy thing. But when you've gone to that place, and I'm still trying to discover that, when you've gone to that place and you know who you are and who you want to be, and you can just be that, that freedom

Rosie (49:34)

Mmm.

Yeah, that resonates absolutely.

and think grieving helps us get there.

Angela (49:49)

Yes, yes it does. It forces us there.

Rosie (49:52)

Well, that's right. That's true. You ain't got a choice.

Angela, thank you so

much. It's really refreshing to be able to have an open conversation about grief and not feel like you're tiptoeing around the subject. So I just want to say thank you for that. And I have learnt a lot. I think we can always be learning. And I highly encourage people to check out Angela's book. Angela, remind me, what is the name of your book? I've gone Awakening Through Grief, is it?

Angela (50:27)

Yes, awakening through grief. There it is. Yeah. Yeah.

Rosie (50:28)

Yeah. Definitely go

check that out. Cause I think, you know, there's essentially it's a roadmap for building or yeah, building a fulfilling life after loss. You've got your personal stories in there. You got some practical exercises and things like that. So yeah.

Angela (50:47)

Yeah,

and check out my website, healingenergy.world. That's where everything is. The podcast, the books, all the stuff. So, yeah.

Rosie (50:53)

Beautiful.

Awesome.

Yeah. Beautiful. Angela, thank you so much. Appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you.

Angela (51:01)

Yeah, thank you. Yeah,

thank you for having me.