86: Grief is like moving into a new town and not knowing anybody with Lynn Banis

Rosie (00:46)

Welcome back to the Pursuit of Freedom podcast. Joining us today is Dr. Lynn sort of went through the traumatic experience of losing her mother, brother, and husband all within the space of about two and a half years.

So think it's fair to say that she's an expert in grief. and Lynn supports people, especially widows to navigate grief and learn how to move forward in life while still honoring the deceased. But Dr. Lynn, I don't want to speak on your behalf because you've got a wealth of wisdom here. Yeah, go right ahead. It'll just be me talking. But I want to say thank you for joining us. This is, this is going to be a great conversation. thank you.

Dr. Lynn Banis (01:35)

You're doing well, go right ahead.

You're welcome. Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to it.

Rosie (01:49)

Yeah, me too. And for our listeners, in case it wasn't already clear, just a content warning. Like if you're not in the space to listen to this one, please come back when you are, or maybe you need to skip it right now and that's cool. We will be talking about grief, death and things sort of in that realm. just.

Dr. Lynn Banis (02:07)

But we will be focusing

on recovery and living a new great life.

Rosie (02:11)

Right.

Well, well, yes, I'm glad you said that. We're not here to get into a doom shame, depressive sort of downward spiral here. We, yeah, we want it to be a productive conversation. So I think, yeah, I'm definitely going to get something from it because we have sort of had a little chat in the past. so yeah, stick around if you can, because I think this is going to be a good one. yeah. And Lynn is.

Dr. Lynn Banis (02:18)

No, not at all.

Rosie (02:40)

an open book. So Lin, I mean, I want to start with kind of a bit of a foundational question because it's, it's never really something that I had considered before. Cause my experience of grief was, was losing my parents. I was 21 when dad died, 27 when mom died. And prior to that, I knew the word grief. And I think I know grief now, but

I also know that it is, it's very fluid and it shifts. what, what is grief in your opinion? What is grief?

Dr. Lynn Banis (03:19)

Grief is an upset of your brain and how it functions and your emotions that is traumatic. So you have moved into a space where you feel like you don't have control and you don't know what's happening and you don't know how to go forward.

Rosie (03:34)

Hmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (03:47)

and it can be very, very painful.

Rosie (03:51)

Yeah. No, that resonates. So we've got kind of a definition there. Okay. Let's make it a bit less clinical. Right? Cause you know, okay, great. We've got a definition, but I, like how you describe that.

Dr. Lynn Banis (04:02)

You

Rosie (04:10)

I, yeah, I, I've never had someone sort of lay it out like that, but it's, it does resonate. But can you take us back to, I guess, life before you experienced all that grief? Because I know for me, and I wonder if it's the same for you, my sense of self and my identity really changed. It shifted big time. So what was...

What was Dr. Bannas like prior to this? And sort of how did that shift?

Dr. Lynn Banis (04:47)

Well, was happily removed from corporate America and enjoying my own company.

Rosie (04:52)

Mm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (04:55)

And my husband was retired, so I worked as much as I wanted, and we went out places together. We had left Chicago and moved back to Virginia Beach, where our girls and their children, their families were. And we were having a great time. One of my must-haves was a pool, because I knew that would get the grandkids over.

Rosie (05:19)

Ha ha!

Dr. Lynn Banis (05:20)

And

we spent in the summer, we spent every Sunday just having a blast, barbecuing, playing in the pool, know, just teasing each other.

listening to music, just having a fabulous time. And we all loved it. And somebody would always say at the end, you know, when people were going home was, I love our family, which was really cool. And then I was also teaching and partner in a coach training school. So I was really honing more skills there, even after 20 years of corporate CEO executive coaching.

Rosie (05:42)

Aww,

Dr. Lynn Banis (06:01)

But I.

I had my mother.

live with us when she was 100 years old because there were two hurricanes heading right to her town. So I told my brother to go get her and he did and she got to his house and promptly fell and broke her hip. So you know there was no way we could have her go back and live on her own. So so it brought her to live with us and I took care of her for six years until she fell at 106 and she broke.

Rosie (06:15)

Wow.

Dr. Lynn Banis (06:38)

18 ribs and a femur in two places. And there's just no recovery when you're that old. So that was a terrible loss because we have become extremely close, best friends. even when she was in the hospital that morning, we were joking and laughing that she was sure in shock and the pain hadn't hit her.

Rosie (06:46)

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (07:08)

But then, you know, that was very tough. That was tough for all of us because everybody was really close to her. You don't have somebody that age in your family without, you know, thinking it's pretty special. And then within, as you said, the next two and a half years, I got a call in the middle of the night that my little brother had a massive heart attack and he was gone. And then my husband...

Rosie (07:15)

Hmm.

Right, yeah

Dr. Lynn Banis (07:38)

had complications from surgery that never should have happened, and he was gone, and they were all sudden. So that compounding of, I think, shock and trauma and grief was really, really, really, really hit me hard.

Rosie (07:44)

Mmmmm

Mmm.

And was the grief different for each of those losses?

Dr. Lynn Banis (08:06)

It was a little bit, you know, it's funny because when you have someone that's 106 years old, you know it's coming. You know, you just don't know when and you've prepared a little bit, but you're never, you're never totally prepared. And in my little brother, that was a real shock because he was so healthy and he, you he ran and he ate properly and it was just.

Rosie (08:14)

Right, yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (08:32)

That was, you know, and when you have a brother that's nine years younger than you, he is your little brother. It makes you face mortality. And so, you know, that was, that was, that was hard. And I was trying to support my sister-in-law while I was still grieving my mother. And she was too.

Rosie (08:37)

Right! Yeah!

Hmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (08:52)

And then when Bill passed away, that was the hardest. I mean, because that's your soulmate, that's your future and your past. And so I think that...

Rosie (09:02)

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (09:07)

What I did is what I would not ask my clients to do and that is I just got super busy and I kept myself really busy. I decided my house was huge, too big for me to hand up by myself and I didn't need all those bedrooms because the kids all lived here. And so I sold it and I downsized and that took, I don't know, about five, four or five months. And right after I moved into my new little

Rosie (09:13)

Uggghhh

Dr. Lynn Banis (09:37)

bungalow, I got sick for three months because my body said, knock it off. You need to grieve. And I did. It was just one thing after another. I just got one thing after another. think I had just worn myself totally out. And that gave me time to think.

Rosie (09:41)

Mmm.

you

Hmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (10:06)

and mourn and grieve and it was an opportunity for me to look around and say, what do I know?

I've had a lot of education. What do I know that would help me get through this? Because I certainly don't want to stay here, you know, which is the point we want people to get to so they are ready to move forward. And, you know, I had kind of a light bulb go off and it said to me,

Rosie (10:32)

bruh

Dr. Lynn Banis (10:42)

You have all the tools you need. You have all these years of coaching, all these years, all this knowledge about human behavior. You have what you need. And you've been through this now several times. So I kind of put together tools and techniques that I knew.

tried them on myself, made myself go through them because I knew that that was the only way it would work. You have to work on your mindset and your self-limiting beliefs and your values and all of those sorts of things before you can even begin to figure out who you are, who you might want to be, and what you might want to do. So, you know, that's when I thought, well, heck.

Rosie (11:24)

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (11:31)

I don't care how old I am, I'm going to start a business and I am going to help other people through this. Because you should not have to do it alone. Nobody should have to do it alone. It's really hard, there's no question. And to have someone who understands and can empathize with where you are, yet

Rosie (11:36)

Mmm.

Right.

Dr. Lynn Banis (11:57)

be able to help you move forward is just so important. And most of us don't have that.

Rosie (12:04)

No, no, I, I found it incredibly lonely and isolating. I remember when I lost dad, I didn't have people in my life as a 21 year old who had experienced something similar in my circle. And so I had my mum and my sister who was nine years younger at the time. It's a big, big age gap there. And I think there was a lot of

Dr. Lynn Banis (12:22)

No.

Rosie (12:36)

What's the word? Concern, worry. That's not quite the word, but you know, I had my mum to talk to, we very close, but also I felt like she was carrying so much. She had two daughters to look after and so you withhold a little bit and right. And I don't think that helped my way of coping. And you mentioned this, like I wouldn't recommend this and neither would I. I got really busy.

Dr. Lynn Banis (12:52)

You do. do. Absolutely.

No.

Rosie (13:06)

I was studying at the time and I remember the day after dad died and it was sudden, sort of freak accident thing. I went into university. The next day I went to class because I had assessments to do and I had an exam coming up. Cause I thought that's what I needed instead of spending time just, I don't know, holding space with my mum and my sister. I went out there and I tried to get busy.

And then I fell apart. Someone saw me, said, Rosie, how are you doing? And I just went, my dad just died. And thankfully they said, you need to go home. You do not need to be here. They gave me that permission.

Dr. Lynn Banis (13:40)

you

Rosie (13:48)

But I also want your opinion on is... is busying yourself with things... is that sometimes effective?

Dr. Lynn Banis (13:59)

it is sometimes but you have to know you have to get some balance you you can't just push yourself push yourself push yourself to the point where you're ignoring what's what's happened excuse me so I think that that's where one of your people you know what one of your your your whole crowd that you just you know you're

Rosie (14:04)

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (14:29)

need to have someone who thinks like you, who understands, that can be with you and notice what's going on and remind you gently.

Rosie (14:36)

Mmmmm

Hmm

Dr. Lynn Banis (14:45)

is

you know, one of the hardest things to do is to find your tribe, your people. Because when you have great losses like that, everything changes. Absolutely everything changes in your life. And you lose some friends. I mean, that's just the way it is. You lose friends if you're married, you lose couple friends. And

Rosie (15:05)

Right... yeah...

Dr. Lynn Banis (15:13)

What you need is to find some people who have been there and who will just accept you and love you the way you are and not say things to you that can be hurtful that most people don't realize they're saying anything that's hurtful. But a lot of it is and you don't want to hear it.

Rosie (15:31)

Mmm. Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (15:39)

You know, I don't want to hear my husband's in a better place. I want him here with me. You know, that's not comforting, not at that point. And, you know, people don't know what to say. They don't know how to act. And so they end up removing themselves so they don't have to deal with it. And then that leads to so much of the loneliness.

Rosie (15:42)

I'm so... Right! Yes! No...

Mmm... Mmm...

Dr. Lynn Banis (16:03)

Now if you have your tribe around, if you can find that, which I help people do obviously, you have that comfort. You can go and just sit and not have to say a thing and you feel comfortable. You're not judged, you're not judging yourself. You're just allowed to be, which is what you need.

Rosie (16:20)

Mmm.

You're just allowed to be, yeah. And you brought up a phrase that makes my blood boil a little bit, that they're in a better place. And I just, have such a vivid memory. The day mum died, it happened a couple of hours before and mum's death was different to dad's. Like she had a terminal diagnosis and it was relatively quick, but we were expecting it. Anyway, family friend called and said, you know, is your mum there? want to say hello.

so I told this person she'd, died earlier that morning. First thing they said, well, she's in a better place now and she's with your dad. And I felt so dismissed. felt like my feelings had been invalidated in seconds.

Dr. Lynn Banis (17:14)

Absolutely cutting.

Rosie (17:16)

is. And like you said, I don't think she knew how hurtful that was.

Dr. Lynn Banis (17:22)

No, she was trying to be helpful, I think. And you find that people do grab onto phrases that they've heard because they don't know what to say. And that's a common one. That's a common one. And every person who's lost someone close to them has said,

Rosie (17:33)

Right.

Dr. Lynn Banis (17:48)

That's just not helpful. It is so hurtful and people don't realize. So I think it's so important to talk about this stuff because we need to educate people. It's not their fault that they don't know what to say. They've not been around death. don't, they feel awkward. And the last thing they want to do is to hurt someone, you know, so they need to learn what it is.

Rosie (18:01)

Christ.

Yes.

Dr. Lynn Banis (18:15)

and how to act and how to support the person, you know, by whatever they say or even just sitting, sitting with somebody. But, you know, that feels like, well, you know, that would be awkward. Well, no, it might be awkward for you, the person visiting, but it wouldn't be awkward for the person grieving. It would be comforting.

Rosie (18:24)

Yeah... Mmm...

Right.

Mm.

Yeah, absolutely. So, okay. We've touched a little bit on things you shouldn't say, right? Which I think is easier to identify than perhaps the things to say. Is there, like, can you share any advice for someone who's listening? Perhaps they haven't experienced a big loss like that. They've got someone in their life who has.

Dr. Lynn Banis (18:46)

You

Rosie (19:05)

They don't know what to say and so they avoid the topic.

which again is difficult for the person who's experienced the loss. But what can the other person say?

Dr. Lynn Banis (19:18)

Well, I think that, you know, giving him a call and saying, hey, I've been thinking about you is one thing. And you can say, honestly, how are you feeling? Kind of that way, rather than just, well, how you doing? Because at least in America, that's how we greet each other. How you doing? Nobody wants to know. They don't want you to answer.

Rosie (19:38)

Right.

Yep. No! Exactly! Yeah!

Dr. Lynn Banis (19:45)

So, you know, be genuine, you know, how are you feeling? How are you coping? Don't force anything if they don't want to talk about it. Accept that and say, understand this is really, really hard and I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable. Drop by with something small, maybe a cup of coffee and a donut. Just so that you, you know, the person knows you're there.

Rosie (20:07)

Mm. Mm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (20:16)

Some people, I don't know for you guys, but for us, the first week or couple weeks, people are bringing food and it's just overwhelming, particularly if you're single and you've got a more of freezer overflowing, but then that stops. so, people mean so well, but I got a nine by 13 casserole.

Rosie (20:26)

Yep.

Yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (20:45)

Like, I can't, I'm not even hungry, you know. So be thoughtful, be, you know, some people have what they call grief groceries, I've heard, that they bring something very simple.

Rosie (20:50)

Right, yeah.

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (21:04)

because the person isn't going to want to cook probably. So bring something simple that they can nosh on, they can snack on, that's easy to do. Don't worry about them eating healthy at that point because they're not going to, they can't. And you just need to make sure they get some nutrition.

Rosie (21:14)

Hmm. Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (21:27)

So I mean you could bring them a smoothie or you know something something that's simple for them to reach out and and grab. I think that's a huge one. Don't be afraid to invite them. Now they're not going to want to go out with you probably for at least a month and maybe more but don't be afraid to invite them. We'd love to have you join us. And I found that

people gave me, some people gave me,

gift certificate to fast food. Now that's not necessarily healthy, but it is something I would do. I would not go to a restaurant and sit by myself. With the fast food, you can drive through and you don't, I mean, I didn't want people to know I was a widow. I had some fear around people knowing that I was alone, you know, and, and

Rosie (22:11)

Mmm.

Right. Yeah.

Mm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (22:30)

people that I didn't know that could tell. So I think being so aware of the things that might be frightening, because fear really plays a big factor. When you don't know who you are, you don't know where you're going, you can't think straight, there are tons of fears that pop up. know, biggest being, what am I going to do?

Rosie (22:34)

Mm-mm.

Yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (23:00)

I can't do this alone.

Rosie (23:03)

Yeah. And I think that's especially true for people who've lost a spouse. I haven't been through that, but I saw my mum go through it. And I think it is, it is a different kind of grief to what I would have experienced losing my dad.

Dr. Lynn Banis (23:10)

Yes.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Rosie (23:22)

You know, your life is so entwined with this person. And like you said, you know, you've lost your soulmate and yeah, your identity was of course, naturally it's going to be, tied to this other person. And all of a sudden, like for you, you lost your husband very suddenly. So overnight was this, was there this feeling of like, who am I? What's the point right now?

Dr. Lynn Banis (23:26)

Thank

Yeah, absolutely,

absolutely, because it was overnight. I was with him in the hospital and I went home to get some dinner and they called me from the ICU and.

He was gone within a couple hours. And you know, it was like, you're spinning, your head is spinning. And you don't know what to think. Because that afternoon we were talking about taking a vacation when he got out of the hospital. And then all of a sudden you're looking at a life that is totally foreign to you. Your feet can't even hit the ground. You're just untethered.

Rosie (24:16)

you

Dr. Lynn Banis (24:33)

and your brain isn't working very well and it's just, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Rosie (24:41)

Hmm...

Hmm...

And do you think grief is something that goes away? Because I have people say, you need to move on.

Dr. Lynn Banis (24:54)

Well.

I like to say move forward instead of move on because you don't, and that's a fear people have. If I move forward, I'll forget about him or, you know, it won't, he won't matter anymore or people will say things about me or, you know, all of those are big fears that people have. And I think grief does not totally go away.

Rosie (24:59)

Me too.

Hmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (25:25)

It's always with you, but once you get through and process all of this stuff and find yourself, you carry it in a different way. I find that one of the things I help people do is bring it forward, bring that person forward into the new life as a wonderful memory, something to be celebrated and shared with other people.

Rosie (25:35)

you

Mm.

Yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (25:55)

I was talking

to somebody this afternoon and I told them that one of the things that we did in the first year, because there are eight grandchildren here that loved him, and I wanted to make sure that we included them in the grieving and everything. And so when his birthday was coming up, I gave every one of them a little mason jar. Do you know what those are? Yeah.

Rosie (26:08)

Wow.

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (26:24)

and you know about three weeks ahead of time and I said think about Billy in the next couple weeks before his birthday and when you think of something that made you giggle that was special that you really loved write it down and put it in the jar and then we each brought our own jars to his you know birthday acknowledgement anyway wasn't really a party but

Rosie (26:40)

Mm-mm.

Mm-mm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (26:51)

But

we sat around and read those things and laughed together and, you know, it was very healing. Instead of saying, I just don't want to think about this being his birthday. You know, if you can make something positive out of it, it's really healing.

Rosie (26:58)

Yes.

and

Mmm. And I've found sharing these memories, these lovely memories, it's incredibly healing. Incredibly healing. And I get this feeling, I don't know if I'm right, but I get this feeling that other people are almost afraid to talk about whoever it is that have died because they don't want to trigger you. They don't want to upset you.

Dr. Lynn Banis (27:36)

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I'll tell you one of the most healing things for me and many, many of my clients were the notes I got from friends, people that have worked with him, and reading what he meant to people and how he impacted their lives. I was bawling, but it was because I was so touched by how beautiful it was.

Rosie (27:51)

Mm.

Yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (28:05)

And

I was so proud of him that he could impact all those lives in such positive ways. So it was very healing and I cherish, I cherish those memories.

Rosie (28:07)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Mmm, absolutely. Yeah, and I bring my sister up a lot and I know she won't mind but it's...

We have grieved very differently.

Dr. Lynn Banis (28:35)

Everybody does.

Rosie (28:36)

Right. And...

as an older sister, you know, quite a large age gap, nine years, I just worry about her because I can see all these feelings and the turmoil inside her. And I just want to, I just want to hold her and give her a hug and, you know, tell her, just let it out, let it all out. But, you know, it's been, how long has it been? Are we 12 years this year since dad died?

And I, maybe I'm being judgmental. I am actually. I worry that it's holding her back because she's not allowing herself to process this grief. It's like, she knows it happened, but I'm just going to keep it to myself and you know, that's it. I'm not talking about it.

Dr. Lynn Banis (29:35)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, I know. And that happens with a lot of people and they really stuck there. And it does impact all aspects of their life. And for some people, it impacts your health and your mental health, your physical and mental health. And, you know, what I always tell people is you don't have to do this alone.

Rosie (29:44)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (30:08)

You should not have to do it alone. So find somebody who knows what they're doing and let them take you by the hand and gently walk you through to your new reality.

Rosie (30:28)

your new reality. And it is that gentle guidance of walking.

Dr. Lynn Banis (30:36)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's work. There's no question. You have to work on yourself. But if you have someone who can do that gently with you and then celebrate your wins and all those sorts of things and make it pleasant.

Rosie (30:40)

Pfft.

Dr. Lynn Banis (30:54)

you're going to get there and you've got support right there. You've got somebody that is part of your tribe because they understand what you're going through and they're not being judgmental and they're willing to let you do what you need to do to get through it.

Rosie (31:03)

Mmm.

you

Hmm. So what, how do we find our tribe? How do we do that?

Dr. Lynn Banis (31:24)

Well, when you think about what is it that's most important to you? And of course, someone grieving, what's most important is to have somebody understand them. So go find people who've been through it who can understand.

Rosie (31:30)

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (31:44)

And sometimes, I mean early on, sometimes that's grief groups, which are fine because they allow you to tell your story and cry and all that sort of thing. The thing is that you don't want to stay in that so long that it becomes a wallow in everybody's grief. So you need to get to the point where you say, I'm

Rosie (31:48)

Right.

Mm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (32:14)

I'm

pretty good now at regulating. mean, there's still going to be times when you get this huge wave that just overtakes you. yeah, but you're not crying all the time. You're not doing things to keep yourself from reaching out to others. And when you begin to get there and you begin to wonder,

Rosie (32:22)

Yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (32:39)

What's next? What am I going to do? That's when you try to find somebody like me who will do that, who will take your hand and walk you through. Because I'll tell you, one of the coolest things is when you see the light bulb goes off and somebody realizes there is hope.

Rosie (32:41)

Hmm... Hmm...

Mm. Mm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (33:03)

There can be something. And you just see all this weight lifting off their shoulders. It's really beautiful.

Rosie (33:12)

And do you think telling someone who's grieving that there is hope, is that a useful thing to do or is that a helpful thing or is that a realization they need to come to by themselves?

Dr. Lynn Banis (33:29)

Well, I think it's a combination of things.

you know, don't tell them that time heals all things because that's not true. It is work. You have to be honest with people. But you can say things like, I guarantee you it does get better. I know it's terrible right now. I know it is so difficult. But as you work through this, things will get better. And

Rosie (33:38)

You

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (34:02)

You know, that's when you just reach out and do those things that I had talked about earlier, that just be a comfort. Be a comfort. Nobody wants you to tell them what to do. Even though they're so confused, they don't have a clue, they really don't want to be told what to do. And you know, one of the big things is that they've lost their sense of control. And when you don't feel like you have any control, the last thing you want is somebody telling you what to do.

Rosie (34:06)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah

Dr. Lynn Banis (34:32)

So, you know, and that's what that's also leads to a lot of fear. I can't control anything, you know. Every single thing's different.

Rosie (34:40)

Hmm.

Mmm. Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (34:47)

So,

you know, and you have to let your brain rewire itself because the minute that loss happens, your brain gets very confused because its job is to keep you safe. And it has created a map of sorts that it uses to help you understand

Rosie (35:00)

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (35:12)

you know, the people around you and your environment, all of those sorts of things. I mean, it's kind of like the reason you can get up in the middle of the night and walk through the house and not crash into anything is that you've got this map, you know, in your head. And so that's what your brain does. And then it takes it time to deal with that, you know, because you were so entwined, as you said, with this person and your brain's going, well, they're not there, you know.

Rosie (35:24)

Right. Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (35:42)

How do we fill this gap? What do we do? And so it's working hard to protect you, keep you safe, and it needs time. It needs time. you can't leave it at that point where you're grieving hard and it's adjusted to that because that's not how you want to go forward. We have to rewire it as you move forward to accommodate the things that you want in your life.

Rosie (35:44)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (36:13)

So that

when you get to the point where you're starting your new life, it's ready to guide you right in there.

Rosie (36:20)

I like how you refer to it as a rewire it to accommodate your new life. I think that's a beautiful way of putting it. And you can have a life that looks different and that you enjoy and that's okay. You are still honoring the person you lost. Cause I think for whatever reason there's guilt involved.

Dr. Lynn Banis (36:43)

Exactly.

Rosie (36:49)

How could I possibly be happy? Yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (36:49)

Terrible guilt. Yeah.

Yeah. Moving on guilt, you know, and everybody's going to say to you, well, he wouldn't want you to be this way or she wouldn't want you to be this way. Well, that, that doesn't help. That doesn't matter. You already know that. You already know that it's, it's the internal things that you're saying to yourself that keep you stuck.

Rosie (37:01)

yeah.

No.

Dr. Lynn Banis (37:17)

and the fear that somebody might think, well, she's not really grieved him. She must not have really cared or, you know, he's gone off with, you know, whatever the thing is. You know, we're so worried about what people will think, so many of us are. And, you know, what happens is that

Rosie (37:36)

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (37:45)

When you're with somebody for a long time, you do a sort of a dance and you kind of meld together in some ways. And let me tell you this, this might help illustrate it. I was standing in the grocery store one day and I had a box of cereal in each hand and I looked at them.

I said, which one do I even like? And I realized that for so long I had bought for us that I didn't even know anymore what I wanted. And that's a huge piece that we have to uncover to help you. Otherwise you're going to be ruled by the shoulds, oughts, musts.

Rosie (38:21)

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (38:37)

You need to do this, you can't do that, you know, and you're never going to be able to stand on your own two feet strong. And that's what we want to get you to that point where you can enjoy your past and your future.

Rosie (38:53)

yeah. Enjoy your past and your future. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. How do we start moving forward so that we, or even just in the present, how do we get to a place where we can enjoy that? Because when you're in

Dr. Lynn Banis (38:56)

your presence in your future. Yeah, absolutely.

Rosie (39:17)

the middle of grief when it's still so overwhelming and you just, you just, for me, it almost feels like you're in the ocean. There's these crazy waves and you're just getting dunked and you're trying to, you know, it's just out of control. So how do we start to shift to a place that we can even just catch our breath, feel grounded and then go, okay, what would a life or what would life look like or what can it look like for me?

Dr. Lynn Banis (39:25)

Yeah. Yeah?

Yeah, I think we have to start by listening to that little yappy voice in our head that's always there and say, what is it saying to me? What am I telling myself? And questioning, is that true? Show me the proof. And looking for places where it wasn't true so you can see, I'm just telling myself that that is not necessarily true.

Rosie (39:49)

GEE

Mm.

Mmm.

Alright.

Dr. Lynn Banis (40:14)

So I prefer and I choose to believe that I do have the capability to figure this out. And I am in the process of it. You know, I'm moving toward that, toward figuring this out. And so, you know, there's just, we have so many self-limiting beliefs, but that, you know, combined with general mindset will keep us stuck.

Rosie (40:22)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Mm.

Hmm. Hmm. How do we, how do we start to work on our mindset?

Dr. Lynn Banis (40:52)

I think starting with your beliefs is a very, very good thing. In NLP, there's a tenant that says the map is not the territory.

Rosie (41:07)

you

Dr. Lynn Banis (41:08)

which

means my little map of where I am living is not this entire territory. So I need to open my brain to receive what might be out there. And I think that's another big point. When you're grieving, you're just holding yourself so tight, trying to protect yourself. But if we can start to expand our thinking with what ifs.

Rosie (41:17)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (41:37)

That will help a lot too because that's how you work on your mindset is what if and you know so what if I want that what do I have to believe to start doing what I need to do to get that because your beliefs are driving your actions your actions don't drive your beliefs

Rosie (42:04)

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (42:06)

So, you know, really getting in tune with the beliefs you already have and, you know, checking those and make sure that those are being helpful to you. And then, you know, start figuring out, well, if I don't want to believe that, what will be helpful and beneficial to me and support me going forward? And make, you know, make the decision.

that that's where you're going to believe and then just keep bringing that up to yourself every time you run into that roadblock. And it's hard, you know? mean, it's hard.

Rosie (42:47)

Yeah.

It's almost like the death of that person. It's like you're just, you're forced to go on this personal development or growth journey. You almost don't have a chance. You're like, okay, yeah, you're forced into it and it can be overwhelming. It is difficult. But you know, now I'm several years into that journey.

Dr. Lynn Banis (43:05)

No choice.

Rosie (43:18)

I do see that as a blessing. I don't, yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (43:23)

Yes, and you know, I think.

that item about being forced is so important because you are forced into it and you are doing it, not because you want to, but there's nothing else you can do than put one foot in front of the other. And that takes strength and you need to look at yourself that way as I am in the process. I have the strength to do this.

Rosie (43:41)

Hmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (43:55)

even though it's not my choice. mean, this is not a club I would choose to join. You know, so being gentle with yourself and kind with yourself and celebrating in a way any little step or tiptoe that you take as building your strength, that really helps your mindset.

Rosie (43:56)

you

No, yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (44:25)

change to an I can do this.

Rosie (44:28)

Hmm. Hmm. I can do this. Yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (44:34)

And I am doing this. think that's important too. I'm in the process. I'm doing this. I was not where I am right now two days ago.

Rosie (44:37)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah acknowledge that.

What do you have to say, because this is something I hear a lot. I'm not sure I've been told it by anyone directly in my life, but I see it a lot online or you see it in movies or things like that. When people say everything happens for a reason in relation to losing someone.

Dr. Lynn Banis (45:02)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, that's a deep belief many people have. And is there a way to turn that into something positive, something that is supportive rather than

feeling like another big obstacle.

Rosie (45:35)

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (45:37)

And that's, you know, it would depend on the person.

because you don't, that can be a religious belief too, you know, so you have to be careful with that because you don't want to discount the person. And.

I think that one of the things that might be helpful would be to say, you know, no, this is hard. This is a part of life we all have to face. We're all going to lose somebody that's important to us. If we haven't already, we will. And it's something we have to accept and learn to deal with.

Rosie (46:25)

Hmm... Hmm... Yeah...

Dr. Lynn Banis (46:29)

Because that doesn't discount the fact that it happened for a reason. I mean, there is a reason, there's got to be an end of life. then too, the reason could be that your beliefs tell you that this is what was in store for this person.

Rosie (46:38)

Yeah.

Right. Right. And I want to share where I stand on this, which could get people's back up a little bit, but when, when someone says everything happens for a reason, I get really angry. Very angry. Not that I outwardly express that, but I think how dare you, you're saying that someone, something chose to kill my parents and you're saying that happened for a

reason? what? Like for me, I just get infuriated, but I know for other people, it gives a sense of comfort. And I think it really highlights how different we all are. We do have different beliefs around death and why things happen. And if there's an afterlife or whatever, there's all these very deep seated beliefs that we hold.

Dr. Lynn Banis (47:46)

this.

Rosie (47:47)

and

it is kinda delicate.

Dr. Lynn Banis (47:49)

It is kind of delicate

because they're a part of us. They're a part of our identity. They're a driver in some of the ways we think. And the last thing you want to do is take away somebody's solace or area where they can go and feel safe.

Rosie (47:52)

Mmm.

Hmm... Hmm...

Yeah.

something I want. Now this, doesn't apply to me because I haven't lost a spouse, but I'm sure there are widows listening to this episode. Perhaps they're early in their grief journey and they've got people in their lives saying, you need to move on. They want, you know, your, husband, your wife would want you to be happy. You need to find someone else. I know this is something my mom experienced. I was quite sheltered from it, but I know it was happening.

Dr. Lynn Banis (48:51)

Yeah. Yeah, it's.

Rosie (48:52)

So yeah,

is that a necessary part? Do you have to do that? Should you do that?

Dr. Lynn Banis (48:57)

No, you should do what works for you. It goes back to me saying, what is it that is going to support you? What are your desires? And you've got to learn to be strong and say, you know what? I'm not interested in that. Not right now. So, you you're not helping me. I'd prefer that we didn't talk about this.

Rosie (49:10)

Hmm.

Mm-mm. Mm.

Right, right.

Dr. Lynn Banis (49:28)

Maybe

in a year, maybe in five years, I don't know. But I had somebody say that to me and I really got angry. To the point where it's hard to respond to them.

Rosie (49:36)

Yeah?

Mmm. Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (49:43)

So, yeah, no, I don't have any interest in them, you know, depending on the point you're in, and you may get to the point where you are interested. So, okay, but if that has to be your choice.

Rosie (49:57)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that may be something you do, but maybe it won't. There's no right or wrong. I remember not long after mum died, one of her very close friends said to me, oh, Tina, that's my mum. She never really got over Steve, did she? So Steve was my dad. And I was just gobsmacked by that statement. I thought, what? I didn't sort of...

I just sort of nodded and smiled, but I went away thinking, what? You think it's possible to get over losing your husband, your wife? What? I just saw, what on earth?

Dr. Lynn Banis (50:43)

Yeah, and that's a balancing act because you need to go forward honoring that person and that role they played in your life. And like I said before, you will get to the point where you carry them differently.

Rosie (50:52)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (51:08)

You've not gotten

over them. That was a part of your life. Why should you forget a part of your life that was so important to you? But take it with you as you move toward your new life and keep it alive. One of the things that I'm doing is my husband and I both were very concerned with human development and

Rosie (51:12)

Mmm!

Yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (51:35)

people leading their best lives and all that sort of thing. Now we were in totally different areas. I was in corporate America and my job was to help people be the best they could be. He was in higher education administration and his concern was for the students to not get bogged down in these things and get caught. And I feel like I'm honoring him by keeping our work that we did together and alongside each other going.

You know, that's one way I carry him and that's much different than I did when he was alive.

Rosie (52:14)

Right. Right.

something I've struggled with.

is especially because, you know, I lost my parents and there's this, even though I was an adult, there is this childlike relationship even as an adult, right? You're looking to your parents for approval. So sometimes, like I made a big decision a couple of years ago to move full-time into my van and in my head I'm like, would they approve? Would they be, you know, and it's like, what?

Dr. Lynn Banis (52:36)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Rosie (52:51)

It's a valid thought, but I, I've really had to pull myself up on that and go, even if they didn't approve or it's not something they would agree with or not something they would do, it doesn't mean that I'm not still honoring them. This is my life and it's okay. Yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (53:11)

That's right.

And they raised you to be someone who could make decisions.

Rosie (53:19)

Mmm. Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (53:21)

You know, even if parents were very controlling, still their concern is that their child would lead a good life. And I think that we do get caught up in that because that's just, that was our upbringing. That's all we knew. And part of that breaking away and becoming independent is beginning to think

Rosie (53:41)

Hmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (53:48)

about making your own decisions. But there's still that history in the back of your mind that says, what would mom think?

Rosie (53:54)

Right... Yeah... Yeah! Right!

Yeah. And I, I'm sure like, did you experience that? You would have been older than I was when you lost your mum. Yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (54:06)

Um, Oh yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I was, you know, and, um, I think of her so often. Yeah. Yeah. There's, know, she would, she would be, she would be happy with what I'm doing, but, know, my dad might've said, well, don't you think you're a little old for that?

Rosie (54:16)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Ha!

Dr. Lynn Banis (54:34)

starting a new business at your age. But, you know, he'd be proud of me too.

Rosie (54:43)

Mm. Mm. Yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (54:46)

And I know that you may be. I certainly was very concerned with pleasing my parents. Growing up. We all were in my family and we loved them so much that we didn't want to disappoint them. So you know how do you get rid of that? Do you get rid of that? Maybe not. Maybe that is a good thing. If it's in control, you know, but if it controls you.

Rosie (54:53)

Yeah. Yeah, me too.

Dr. Lynn Banis (55:15)

then it's like the shoulds, oughts, and musts in our lives.

Rosie (55:18)

Yeah.

Yeah. I could just keep asking questions on this. Grief is, it's very complex, isn't it? But I feel like we've had this conversation is we've covered a lot, but if there's so much more to it though, right? But if you had one takeaway message, if someone listening, if there's just one thing you want them to leave with, leave with.

Dr. Lynn Banis (55:28)

Yes.

Rosie (55:46)

In terms of grief, what would it be?

Dr. Lynn Banis (55:50)

Well, you probably don't believe that you know what to do. But I believe that all of your life, you have been learning things and gaining skills and tools and knowledge, and that you have in you what you need. If you...

Rosie (55:58)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (56:13)

don't know how to access that and pull it out, then get somebody to help you. Get somebody who is trained and skilled in this. And again, you don't have to do it alone. Sometimes somebody on the outside can see things you can't see. And so be proud, be strong. It's there. It's time for you to rise.

Rosie (56:28)

Yeah.

Mmm, I love that. And I want to end with a specific question that I ask every guest. So Lin, what does freedom mean to you?

Dr. Lynn Banis (56:56)

To me, freedom is being able to make my own decisions about things. And that includes, you know, having a mind that's open, as well as being able to say, all right, I'm done with this now, I'm going to go to the grocery store or whatever. Yeah. You know, so it's, it's, it's, it's big. It's very big.

Rosie (57:12)

Mm.

Right, right, yeah.

Mmm.

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (57:26)

And I also believe that there's a piece of it that is like do no harm. You can be free, but you can't impede on other people. That's not freedom.

Rosie (57:39)

Hmm.

Right. Yeah. And I see it as, it is a big part of grief too, because I know at the beginning I felt like grief was this cage around me, you know, just trapping me and taking over my life. But, you know.

I don't even know how you'd describe it. Is it breaking free from that? I don't know, but you do find a sense of freedom when you begin to work through this grief and go, okay, what's life gonna look like now?

Dr. Lynn Banis (58:09)

Yeah.

Yeah, and then at that point, hopefully you've gotten to the point where you see it as an opportunity. Or you can get to that point where you see it as an opportunity because it really is. How many times in your life do you really get to decide what you want next?

Rosie (58:21)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Mmm.

Dr. Lynn Banis (58:34)

without

all the responsibilities of other people and taking care of people and all of those things. You're in a new place. And so it's a redefinition and then a rebuilding.

Rosie (58:47)

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for this conversation. really, it's going to sound strange to some people, but I do enjoy talking about grief. It's so validating and it is eye-opening as well to hear other people's experiences and your insights on that. So yeah.

Dr. Lynn Banis (59:11)

And if you've been

through it, it is interesting, very interesting. And if you've not been through it, it should be interesting because it's coming at some point in time. And to know that people can have been, well, you said a cage. I always felt like I was in a deep well and I couldn't get any way to climb out.

Rosie (59:16)

Hmm.

I agree. Right. Yeah.

yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Lynn Banis (59:40)

So everybody's experience is different, but you learn so much when you talk about it and you can begin to open that mind and realize that you don't have to stay there. Yeah, it's going to be really tough for a while and you're going to hurt. But your body and your mind helps to compensate and get you readjusted. It's like moving to a new town and not knowing anybody.

Rosie (59:46)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. Right.

Dr. Lynn Banis (1:00:10)

You

you work it out. So I think that both sides of it are interesting.

Rosie (1:00:12)

Mmm.

Absolutely. Yeah. So thank you so much for this conversation. I've learned a lot. know the listeners have. Yeah. I'm glad you enjoyed it too. It's been great.

Dr. Lynn Banis (1:00:23)

This has been great.

Well, if you get

a bunch of questions from your listeners, we'll come back and answer all those questions and that would be fun. That would be great.

Rosie (1:00:33)

beautiful. Yeah. Yeah,

it would be. Well, hopefully we'll talk soon then.

Dr. Lynn Banis (1:00:39)

Okay, alrighty.