83: Signs of Burnout and Misalignment, and the Importance of Values with Mary Guerdoux Harries

Rosie (00:00)

Welcome to episode 83. This is the second episode where I have been experimenting with no editing. So enjoy this one. I gotta admit though, I did cut a section out so that counts as editing, right? But I'll tell you why. It was about five minutes of going, huh? Can you hear me? Sorry. Huh? Yeah. And.

the guest was actually talking and there's just me yabbering over like, what I can't hear, what's going on? So got rid of that. Sorry, not sorry. That would have been very annoying for you to listen to. Anyway, I think this no editing thing is proving a lot more sustainable because when I edit episodes, know, the episodes are long, usually about an hour to edit that it takes about two hours. And then on top of that, I have to write the episode description. have to create the thumbnails.

I have to upload it to Captivate, my podcast host. I then have to upload it to YouTube. And if I can be bothered or have the energy left, I need to create social clips to post to social media. So it gets really bloody overwhelming. So the two things I'm doing to help reduce that overwhelm is I'm going back to one episode a week and I'm going to try this not editing thing because then I get to do the fun bits, which is talking to people and having cool conversations. So yeah.

That's all the episode. hope you enjoy this one and I will catch you soon.

Rosie (02:15)

Welcome back to the Pursuit of Freedom podcast. Joining me today is Mary. I'm going to anglicise this because my French pronunciation is terrible, but we've got Mary Agadu-Harries and she will correct me in a moment.

Now, Mary has lived in France for almost 20 years and she's a core energy coach. She supports women in developing their unique formula for success that enables them to live a life they want without burning out. We'll also probably be touching on perhaps a heavy topic. So just a content warning that we may be talking about Mary's experience as an assault victim. So if that's something that's triggering to you or you're not in the right head space to listen, give this one a pass or come back when you're ready.

And with that aside, Mary, thank you so much for joining us today.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (03:02)

Thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to it.

Rosie (03:05)

Yeah, likewise, it's been a few months. So please, before we go any further, how do we pronounce your name, Mary?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (03:07)

Mm.

So like we were saying just before I have this completely impronounceable French surname now so it's Gerdou but my original British surname is Harris which is a lot simpler at least for English speaking people but that's really difficult for French people though so so I go with both I keep both it makes it more fun

Rosie (03:19)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yep. No, beautiful. I like it. And, my apologies for butchering that. I think it's, it's funny how it's so difficult for English speaking people to pronounce words in other languages. Like, is this something you got the hang of immediately?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (03:52)

No, I don't think so. I mean, I always found so I did quite a bit of French at school and I actually found it much easier than we did German as well, which at least in terms of pronunciation should be easier. So I guess it was for pronouncing things, not so much French, but French somehow flowed much more easily for me. And I think I spoke to so the people I've spoken to about this a lot is Scandinavian people because they seem to be really good at pronouncing.

Rosie (04:00)

Hmm... Yeah.

you

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (04:18)

know, English words, French words, and it seems like we have fewer sounds in the English language. So because we don't learn them when we're young, we just can't kind of get our mouths around them. Whereas apparently lot of the Scandinavian languages seem to have a lot more of the sounds so they can pick up French and these other accents more easily. So apparently that's maybe where that comes from. But what's interesting with that too, my daughter is just seven. she's about to be seven on Friday. And so she's learning to read. And the way they're learning to read is all they start with the sounds.

Rosie (04:19)

Yeah, yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (04:47)

So if I'd actually learned French this way that would have really helped get over these there's some words I still get really stuck on everyone goes what are you saying? I just can't I can't get my So, yeah, yeah, I'm out. Just don't want to do it

Rosie (04:54)

Yeah, what are you saying?

I can relate to that part.

Yeah. Language barriers aside though, I want to dive into the work that you do or really who you are as a person. So can you take us back a bit because you weren't always a coach. You have a degree in mechanical engineering and you worked in corporate for two decades, I think. So what on earth happened?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (05:29)

Great question. don't know. I do know. So yeah, mean, my mechanical engineering was kind of my path. So when I was a kid, I, I loved all subjects at school. That was kind of the challenge. It was a bit of an all rounder. I liked everything and decided to go down this engineering path, did all the steps, studied really hard, got into a really difficult university to get into, did a degree that was really tough.

right, and I'm going to hit the workforce and have this fantastic career. And yeah, I mean, I enjoyed my work as an engineer, there's no and I compared to some people I moved around quite a lot, I tried lots of different things, I really like variety, and that she'd enabled me to do that. So these are all things I really loved about him. But then what happened was a combination of becoming a mum. So my daughter is nearly seven now, but I also became a step mum.

Rosie (06:20)

Mm-hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (06:24)

a couple of years before that to three other kids. like I had a very fast becoming a mum transition. that, I mean, that turns everything on its head anyway. And then COVID happened. And just, yeah, that, as it turned out, opportunity in amongst all the other stress, I mean, that was going on with that crazy period and not knowing what was going on. And what it did do for me actually was open up some space because our schedule completely changed.

Rosie (06:28)

Yeah. Yep.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (06:52)

I had quite a crazy commute to work, so that stopped. And what ended up happening with the way our days changed, there was this, I would wake up early in the morning, I'd have like a couple of hours before everybody else woke up. And it finally like opened up this time to kind of go, okay, what am I doing? Because I kind of know there's been something at the back of my mind bugging me for a while now telling me that something's off. I just haven't really had time to think about it. And actually, I would sit outside at our house, we have a

Rosie (06:55)

Hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (07:20)

I sat in this corner of the garden where there was a bit of sunshine in the mornings and I could see like the motorway where I'd normally be driving every morning. Nobody there. The airport, no planes going anywhere. And it just kind of really drove home. What is all this rushing about for?

Rosie (07:25)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (07:35)

I mean, we had this really crazy schedule every morning of getting everybody out of the door dropping kids off at school, my daughter off at daycare. I mean, by the time I arrived to work, I was ready.

pretty exhausted and I hadn't even done what was supposed to be the working part yet. And then, you know, in the evening, we just go through that whole process again. And it felt like almost like every minute was kind of determined had to be you know, these things had to happen. Otherwise, there was just no way of getting doing everything before you know, sort of falling into bed at the end of the day. And, you know, I knew I didn't like that. But I just hadn't yet I hadn't really taken the time to think, Okay, well, what can I actually do about it? And does it have to be this way? It just seemed that I had no choice.

Rosie (08:15)

Hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (08:17)

And I was on a flight and I'd seen an advert for a book that I had bought and then not actually ordered it, not ordered it, not read yet, called Be a Free Range Human. And the title just, yeah, like the title, right? Free Range. was like, I don't feel very free range at the moment. So that kind of was what inspired me to buy it. And yes, it was all about, you know, rethinking how we think about work, how we think about our career.

Rosie (08:27)

Mm-hmm.

I love that.

No!

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (08:47)

the fact that, you know, we don't, we don't retire at like 60 or something anymore, whatever we're doing, we're going to be doing it for a long time. So why not focus on things that we love things that we want to be doing. And what really spoke to me too was, well, look, when you're in a corporate role, there's a job description and whoever you are, whatever you're good at, you're trying to kind of adapt yourself to that. And we spend so much time talking about what we're not good at. I was like, she's like, let it go. What about the stuff you're good at? Make the most of that and

Rosie (08:56)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Right? Yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (09:17)

All of that really spoke to me. And I started thinking, well, you know, this is what I really love in my work. This is what I don't love. This is how I'd like things to be. And I started thinking about coaching. And then I had a kind of, I guess, imposter syndrome style. How can I possibly now kind of do that? I'm an engineer. I followed this path. Who's going to take me seriously? And so I ended up working with a coach, which again, I went backwards and forwards with.

Rosie (09:34)

Right.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (09:45)

Can I really spend this money? Is this something I want to do? And then I really had a you know what, like if I don't do this now, you know, when am I ever going to do it? Like that has never been a better opportunity. And also if I don't invest in myself, you know, what, what, who else is going to and you know, isn't that isn't this actually a really good way to spend my money. So I did that. And this was someone who's a career coach.

Rosie (09:47)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (10:09)

But of course it's about so much more than just career when you start exploring who you are, what you want. We got really into my values. And again, another big realization about it like, well, actually the lifestyle I'm leading just doesn't really fit with all of that. And so the process went on and yeah, I came up with, okay, I want to design a life that suits me. I don't want all this rushing. I want more flexibility in my schedule to adapt, to be available for my daughter. And I want to be not on this like rush, rush, rush every day. And

Rosie (10:12)

Thanks.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (10:39)

Yeah, this part that had come through in my work, the part about developing other people, helping other people kind of learn things, realize things, kind of pursue their goals. You know, that's what I was really loving about my work, even if it wasn't the main focus of what I was doing. So yeah, from there, I was like, okay, it's coaching. This is how this is kind of what I want my life to look at. This is what freedom looks like to me, because freedom was like a really big word that kept coming through, I felt really trapped. And I was like, okay, I can actually

Rosie (10:54)

Right.

Yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (11:08)

do something about this, take a bit of control of my own life. And then yeah, from there, I then signed up for coach training. And what was really funny with that was I did that the following year. And so that I was saying, my life is too hectic. It's too busy. I don't have time. I have no energy. I added a whole massive coach training course to my schedule like the year after. And I'd never had more energy. It was like, how does this work? And that's, yeah, and that's really what inspires me with the work I want to do with other people. It's like when you're doing the things that really start connecting to

Rosie (11:26)

Yeah.

What?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (11:38)

what you love, who you are, and everything else. There's a wealth of energy there. But yeah, if we're not doing those things, we just feel just exhausted all the time. It doesn't feel possible to do something else. And yeah, that's what I that's what inspires me with the coaching, bringing that realization that I had to other people in their context, because other people's version of, you know, freedom and everything else isn't the same as mine. But you need time to figure out what it is. I mean, it's not necessarily that obvious.

Rosie (11:41)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah, and you mentioned how when we're doing something

that we don't enjoy, that doesn't align. It feels like we have no time and it's a drag and it feels just impossible. So how do we, like how do we get out of that? I've got a friend, I'm going to give this as an example. She is a teacher. She'd been teaching for I think over eight years. Really wasn't enjoying it anymore. was soul sucking, always stressed, just not happy. And I'm close with this friend and I'm like, what are you doing? You need to get out.

But the chats were like, I don't have the time. You know, I need the money and the income. And so her mental health was just put bottom. Eventually, I'm proud to say she quit teaching last year, but I still haven't quite been able to put my finger on what, what is the tipping point for people? Is there something in common? What makes us all of a sudden go, no, I'm going to make the time or whatever it is.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (13:02)

Mm.

Yeah, really great question. And I ask myself that question quite often. Especially when you talk to people and say, my goodness, I could really help you and they people aren't really ready. And I think it's really personal what that tipping point is some people it has to get really bad. mean, sometimes it's, it's really that our health gets to a point where we just either have no choice anymore. And so, you know, something has to give or people get scared enough about what their health situation is starting to look like.

Rosie (13:13)

Hahaha!

Y- Yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (13:36)

say, okay, well, maybe there's something more fundamental that needs to happen here. So I've seen a lot of people where it's that. Others, it's been, you know, kids can actually be quite good for that in the sense of they're amazing for reflecting back to you kind of what really is going on. And I've heard that from people before. And it can be, you know, I mean, it happened to me, this wasn't actually the thing that then set me off on this path. But I can remember a few years ago by stepdaughter.

Rosie (13:39)

Mm-mm.

Yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (14:04)

saying, I think it was not long after my daughter was first born and I was just exhausted and not sleeping and all that stuff. She was saying, I don't feel like I see you having fun very often. And I was like, Whoa. And she was really right. She was really, I was so kind of like, yeah, but now I need to make dinner and now this needs to happen and now this needs to happen. and another friend I was speaking to not very long ago, hers was that, so she has a really crazy job. This particular friend, she, she does love what she's doing, but she's

Rosie (14:09)

Mm-hmm.

What a slap in the face.

Yeah

Mm-mm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (14:34)

you know, asking questions about the fact that she doesn't have the time for her family that she would like. And she said it was her daughter who said to her, who's a little bit older, well, you know, all these like meetings you have, mom, and you're kind of going back to work late at night. so, I mean, do you love it? Like, do you really love it? Because I mean, if you do, that's so cool, and you should really keep doing it. But if you don't, like, why are you doing that? And she's about 14. And she said to me, this was like this.

Rosie (14:55)

Mm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (15:04)

moment. and yeah, so now she's looking at perhaps doing something different. So yeah, there's stuff I love about my job, but it's no longer enough to make up for the fact that I don't have this time with my family that I want. And she's having a rethink about the kind of organization that she wants to work for that might be more aligned with her values, and so on. So it's different things, I think, but generally, and it's kind of a shame, but I think as humans were wired like this, it's got to get bad enough. And sometimes it has to get really quite bad. You really want to help some people and just say, please.

Rosie (15:04)

Yeah...

Mmm... Mmm...

Yeah,

yeah

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (15:33)

But

yeah, it's got to come from, you know, it's got to come from the person. Otherwise, you can talk about stuff, you can have really good ideas, but the shift just doesn't really happen. So the desire has to be strong enough. And hopefully, it's not something where they really have to get really sick or anything before they get there. But something needs to give you that, yeah, a bit that either that slap in the face or that, that extra motivation that makes you go, okay, it's now. Yeah.

Rosie (15:39)

Mm-hmm.

Mm. Mm. Yeah.

Mmm.

It's time. Yeah. So

do you think we have to hit that rock bottom place or the example you were giving about, you know, your friend's kind of hitting her with a truth bomb, essentially? Is it either or like maybe it's someone just opening your eyes to hate and asking the big question like, are you really happy? Is this what you want to do? Is it a combination of both? Because

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (16:12)

Yeah.

Mm.

Rosie (16:26)

It's a question that plays on my mind all the time. I see people who are miserable, but for whatever reason, they're not ready to make the change. And so does it require them hitting rock bottom? Is that just an essential?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (16:29)

Mm.

I would say it's not an essential, but for a lot of people it starts there. And I think, especially if you start working on yourself and so on, you get a bit better at seeing the signs earlier and saying, okay, this is actually a sign that I need to change. But perhaps, I think for a lot of people, without that rock bottom first, all the other things that are keeping them doing what they're doing are still too strong or they have too much power, that they can't do it without hitting rock bottom first.

Rosie (16:54)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Could you offer any insight? I don't know if there's an answer to this, to people. I think self-awareness is a big piece.

to sort of recognize these red flags before they hit rock bottom. Cause there's usually signs, right?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (17:23)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Mm hmm. Yeah. No, they're absolutely signs. So there's definitely so I had a client who used this word, which for me is a made up word, but I liked it. She called it outbursting, which I quite like. Because I really that really speaks to me. So it's with the people you care about most. Do you find yourself quite regularly doing that having these kind of, you know, being kind of disproportionately angry or irritated about not being stuff?

Rosie (17:55)

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (17:58)

because obviously it's just not big stuff, but it's kind of happening often and you just feel it doesn't feel like, okay, that irritating. don't know, my kids have stuff on the floor again. And then there's this other experience, which is that anger and emotion that's coming in that moment is so overwhelming that what kind of blah, what comes out of your mouth isn't, isn't under any kind of control. I feel like there's, you know, I get angry with the kids and I can now see much better. This is a sort of controlled, I'm communicating the that I'm angry.

Rosie (18:19)

Mmm.

Mm-mm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (18:27)

that's okay.

And it's normal. And then there's the just, I'm just letting out a whole load of other stuff that I am not in control of. If that's happening a lot. There's a level of stress there that's kind of that's not okay, there's something there's something to be addressed. And then it's the, you know, the really, I mean, we all do it sometimes you have to drag yourself out of bed in the morning, but if it's really every day, and if there's really that

Rosie (18:33)

Yeah, yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (18:54)

I don't know if you've had that, that heaviness when you arrive at work every day, like, right. And of course some days it's like that, but if it's often, if it's a lot of the time and if the, you know, the weekend or whenever it is that you get a break, that isn't actually somehow kind of balancing that out. You're still studying again on Monday going, okay, that's starting to be a lot of the time that you're in. So in coaching, we call catabolic energy. emotions, which are all about

Rosie (18:58)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (19:23)

Anger, sadness, frustration, feeling helpless. But if that's coming up kind of regularly, then something really needs to change because we all experience those feelings. But if it's happening really a lot of the time and also doing your kind of day to day so that, okay, some awful things happen, of course we go there. But if it's just, you know, the toing and froing and the picking up the mess and the getting to work on time, if all of that is generating so much of that kind of energy.

Yeah, something, something needs to change. And it might actually be something quite small. I think what scares people sometimes is it's like, my goodness, if I get into this, are we saying I have to, you know, rip up the whole thing and get a divorce, leave my job, like completely change my life, which is a terrifying idea. Often, it's not often, it's actually just some quite small things. But until we start making the shift, all that other stuff is so overwhelming and so heavy. But yeah, everything's kind of polluted by that.

Rosie (19:59)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (20:16)

that energy, even the stuff which is actually kind of okay, but we can't even tell already anymore.

Rosie (20:19)

Yeah,

yeah. It's like being in that state of overwhelm. And I can relate to this outbursting. I love that word. It's, you know, I just become so dysregulated that something like, I don't know, someone looks at me wrong or they say something I don't agree with and I am just flying off the handle. Or, you know, your partner's not washing the dishes when you ask them to. They're waiting five minutes before they do it. How dare, you know, you just blow up.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (20:27)

Yeah

Rosie (20:49)

Definitely a sign, right? Definitely. So that relates. think all of us have probably been through these or experienced outbursting.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (20:52)

Yeah, definitely.

For sure. Yeah, I mean, and we're all going to do it. But if it's starting to be kind of a regular, is what happens all the time, then yeah, there's maybe something to get into there and figure out.

Rosie (21:05)

you

Yeah.

What are some questions we can ask ourselves when we're noticing we're having these outbursting moments a lot?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (21:21)

Okay, so a couple of things. The first one and this is what we do in a in a coaching process. The first one is, know, what, what is the emotion that's coming up and actually giving it a word and a name, however, I don't know, simple that might seem isn't necessarily and saying out loud what it is I feel angry. Or a lot of the time when we're talking about dishes and things, actually, it's So why I feel so hurt by that. And actually, when you start going so if I'm feeling

Rosie (21:40)

Hmm.

Whoa.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (21:49)

hurt by it, what is the thought I'm having about this situation. So I'm thinking something about this. And it's not just, he hasn't done the dishes. And then it's like, actually, and like, for me, turns into, well, actually, I asked him to do the dishes. It's important to me, because I would like to, I don't know, finish my day and relax or feel like we live in or be in like a nice, tidy environment. And he's not paying attention to that. And actually, maybe that kind of means he doesn't love me. I mean, never.

Rosie (21:52)

Hmm. Hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (22:17)

in that moment when you're starting there outbursting about the dishes, are you saying to yourself, that's what's going on here? But actually, when you start asking yourself, well, what is the real emotion? Because it's probably not just anger, like why is, you know, what's behind that anger? And then what is this kind of this thought process, this story? And then, you know, the question we ask always in coaching, but you can ask yourself is when you go, well, how true is it that not doing the dishes means that he doesn't love me? And then you go, well, of course, that's not what it means.

Rosie (22:22)

right.

Yeah, yeah

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (22:45)

And immediately, there's at least a certain amount of weight that goes away. And then it's like, okay, so that's not what's really going on here. And then you can start getting into well, how can I see this differently? Or how can I communicate differently and, get sort of further into it? But that what is happening? What is the emotion? What is the actual thought process? What is the story that I have about what's happening? That's what usually then opens up the, okay, that's what's really

Rosie (22:45)

Mmm.

Yes. Yeah.

Hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (23:14)

going on here. This is probably very rarely about the dishes. I heard, I forget where I heard that on a, if it was on a podcast or, and it was a therapist talking about the fact that someone said, you know, I divorced my husband because for the, don't know how many of the time he didn't put his golf clubs away. And her thing was, you know, it's never actually about the golf clubs, but it's like this final straw.

Rosie (23:15)

Mm-hmm.

true.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (23:38)

hear the whole, you know, other process. I I whenever I hear that, I always think about this thing of, you know, these golf clubs outside the cupboard in the cupboard, and it just being, you know, a life changing disaster. And it can I mean, it kind of can be I mean, there might be a whole lot of other things first, but it's never actually about the golf club.

Rosie (23:39)

Yeah.

You

Hmm.

Yeah. So do you think we need a coach or someone to help walk us through finding the answers to these questions or is it something we can do by ourselves?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (24:06)

I would say so obviously as a coach, get a coach. Of course, I'm going to say that I, I think both what I so I mean, in the past, I've also had therapy. And I've been through that process. It taught me lots of things. Coaching what I've really found with that because also as a coach, you as well as being trained, you then you then continue to get to be coached. I mean, it's good practice. And now I feel like it's just good mental hygiene, really. But

Rosie (24:09)

Yeah!

Mmm.

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (24:36)

Certainly, I do see the difference over time with the fact that as time goes by and I've been coached more and I coach more, there's so much more that I can just sort of figure out myself and regulate myself. And I know these signs, I see them so much more often and sometimes I'm just like, I don't want to think about it. I just want to have a good outburst. Thank you very much. Yes, I really see the value in.

Rosie (24:48)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (25:03)

it's when it's someone from outside, they can just give you that other perspective that it's so hard to have for yourself. And you can certainly manage a good chunk of things with that, but especially when bigger things happen. There's so much it's really overwhelming. it's, it's, yeah, it's just such a great help getting a coach and at least going through a more in-depth coaching process at least once to kind of understand the tools, figure out the process.

Rosie (25:07)

Yes. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (25:27)

that teaches you so much that you can then keep using afterwards and it's you maybe something that you just dip into again in the future or that you do on a regular basis I mean some people have coaches for anything and everything so yeah I'd say at least once going through a sort of at least a fairly in-depth coaching process really sets you up for afterwards and then yes whether you want to keep doing or not is another question but I would certainly recommend it

Rosie (25:34)

All right.

Yeah.

Mmm.

I tend to agree. And I think when you're paying a coach or you have someone outside helping you, guiding you, it gets you there quicker, wherever it is you want to be. If you're going to do it by yourself, you're going to be, it's trial and error. You're just sort of trying to figure it out and you might get there eventually, but it could take years or maybe you're just never going to get there. So investing in yourself in that way. And like you said, even if it's just one session.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (26:02)

Yeah.

Rosie (26:18)

It's going to equip you with a lot of knowledge and tools to help you make your life better, really.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (26:27)

sure. Yeah. And like you say, it's, it's a question of time, like how, know, how long do you want to wait to start feeling differently about things? And how important? Yeah, how important is that? And it's like that realisation, realisation I had back in the back in lockdown, it was like, okay, well, I could get into this now. Or I can keep waiting. But you know, how long am I going to be waiting for? And I had this real sense of urgency that now it's Just, yeah, just go. Just go.

Rosie (26:28)

Mm.

Yeah, what do you

say to people who go, it's not the right time?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (27:04)

It's yeah, I'm that hard to answer because it's like it's true and it's not that might well be true if people are really feeling like it's not Even if you do some coaching, it's only going to go so far And that might have some value But if you really want it to be impactful, you've got to be ready and it can be really quite hard to figure out if people are ready or not But if people are really saying it's not the right time then okay, then it's not the right time It's not gonna have the same impact

Rosie (27:30)

Hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (27:33)

as when someone says, okay, yeah, now I'm doing it. I'm working with someone at the moment. The coaching process is going really, really well. And she was recommended to me by a mutual acquaintance who said to me afterwards, oh, but for years I've been wanting her to do something like that. I was like, okay, but clearly it wasn't the right time before. It might have felt like it should have been. And on the outside, oh, my friend, I'd love you to do this. But for her, for whatever reason, it wasn't the right time. And even if we'd like that for people.

Rosie (27:34)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (28:01)

Yeah, we don't get to decide for other people.

Rosie (28:03)

I struggle with that

so much. Like your life could be so much better!

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (28:08)

Yeah, and it's tough when it when we're a friend, it's not the same as being a coach. because we have a vested interest. So yeah, we can't we can't feel the same about it.

Rosie (28:10)

Sheet!

right. Well, right, that's exactly right. Yeah.

Is it ever possible to help people realize that perhaps the time is now or is it really they just have to get there by themselves? Can we help them get there? No, I'm not.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (28:30)

You're not going to let this one go are you?

mean, what works often for me, or I've noticed what I've noticed with friends, because it's that it's often telling stories about other people that or about myself, that usually then kind of makes me go, yeah. So yeah, that I think taking also taking the focus away from the other person. So I do know I talk about what's going with me, my struggles, my what I'm thinking about, I might talk about, I'm working with someone and you know, it's about the subject is around this or around that. And so often people go,

Rosie (28:43)

Mm-mm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (29:09)

actually, yeah, that sounds like me and my son or that sounds like and that is somehow more comfortable, I think, for people than hearing, you know, your life, you should do this. And of course, of course, we get defensive as well. So I think you're telling stories about other people. mean, genuinely, not just making something up to try and illustrate. So I know this person, right? Who sounds a bit like you know, but yeah, talking, talking around other examples, your own experiences, your own

Rosie (29:19)

Right.

Yeah, yeah, right. Right.

Yeah, that's not great.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (29:38)

It's making me think about I was just I just finished one of Brenny Brown's book, you know, she talks so much about vulnerability. It's amazing what sharing your own vulnerability does for allowing other people to open up and talk about their own. So yeah, I think you've got to either share other people's stories or start talking about your own vulnerability. that no, no, but if you show how yeah, how what your

Rosie (29:42)

Mm. Yes, yeah.

Very true.

In other words, we can't force them to be ready, can we? Dang it.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (30:06)

prepared to share. That can kind of help bring some of those barriers down and help them feel like, okay, yeah, okay, me too, actually. So maybe there's something to do.

Rosie (30:07)

It could help them. Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah.

And what you're saying really reminds me of, Mel Robbins has a new book, Let Them Theory. I haven't read it bit, but I've heard, I've heard her talk a lot about it. That's the same sort of thing. You just got to let them, you get on with your life, but model whatever it is and they're going to see you doing it, living your life. they'll go, that looks all right. I might give that a go. Or they'll hear the stories you're telling. So this is something I would like to

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (30:30)

Mm.

Rosie (30:45)

work on more and I think I'm getting better at it but I struggle especially with people who are close to me, for example my sister. I struggle so much just watching her flounder and not be happy but I've had to learn just let her, just let her keep talking, sharing the stories and the experiences. If and when she's ready she'll get there.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (31:04)

Mm.

Yeah. Yeah. And she's, yeah, she's the one in charge of her life. So then and, if, and another one, again, because the thing about coaching, which is what makes it different from mentorship. So mentorship is more about sharing advice and experience coaching is absolutely not about ever giving advice, which can can feel when especially when you're learning feels very strange. You can't say, how about this? If the person hasn't come up with the idea themselves about what they're going to do, or how they're going to address something.

Rosie (31:12)

yeah.

Mm-mm.

Yes.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (31:37)

they're never going to be committed to it in the same way, if it's come from you rather than coming from themselves. So there's a real value in the fact that they've done this whole process themselves, however frustrating and however much we'd like them to the fact that they're working it out by themselves is not only what will make them more committed to it, but it's what will enable them in the future to then be able to, you know, keep doing stuff. So it's actually, it's actually a gift, don't know if that can help. You're actually giving them a gift of

Rosie (31:41)

Mm. Mm.

Yes.

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (32:06)

figuring it out for themselves.

Rosie (32:06)

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Sometimes I don't believe it, but I'm going to keep saying it until I do because it is true. And I read a book last year. What's it called? The Advice Trap, think. Michael Bungie Steiner. And just like what you were saying, you're not giving advice or telling people what to do as a coach. It's got to be the other person's idea. It does. If they're going to be truly invested in it and see it through, it's not going to be because you're telling them what to do.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (32:11)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Rosie (32:35)

I hate being told what to do.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (32:38)

Yeah, I mean, I've got teenagers in my house. I know how badly that works. Keep doing it. But yeah, no, how badly that works. Yeah.

Rosie (32:40)

You

Exactly. Yet we still do it, don't we? Yeah.

Let's touch on this concept of being a free range human or leading a free range life. And I want to hear your thoughts on how that ties in with

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (32:54)

Mmm.

Rosie (33:04)

how you've begun to speak more openly and publicly about your experience of assault because maybe four or five months ago you spoke publicly about it for the first time. So has this been part of your free range, you know, journey or is it something different?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (33:15)

Mmm.

Yeah.

good question. It wasn't. Yeah, I'm not sure it was part of the plan. Yeah, let's put it that way. I didn't I didn't see that one on the Yeah, when I was thinking about becoming a coach and this other kind of lifestyle I wanted to have in that wasn't in there. And it's it's, it's come through. So now, yeah, I would say now I do see it as part of that because

Rosie (33:30)

Yeah, yeah!

Mm-mm-mm.

Hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (33:51)

So I had this awful experience of assault when I was only 19. So it was a very, very long time ago. And I mean, there's a whole there's a whole story there. But at the at the time I had some therapy, and I can remember thinking this is my much younger self. Okay, that's that's done. I realize much later that that's not how it works. But that was done. And now I'm cracking on with my life and getting back to my engineering and everything else. And I mean, it was many years later.

Rosie (33:55)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (34:21)

that the first proper sign that absolutely was not done came up. like 15 years later, I went through a big breakup and I got PTSD and I had no idea what, know, where is this coming from? What's that about? And then I had a wonderful therapist who helped me with that. used something, it's called somatic experiencing this time around.

Rosie (34:32)

Hmm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (34:48)

which is all about how you're experiencing those things in your body and in your nervous system. And I discovered that whole process and that, I mean, that moved me out of the PTSD, but it also made me completely aware that I was like, okay, so this whole thing that happened to me, there's all sorts of, there's much more to it than I thought. And who knows when and if some other things might kind of show up. so when I, so roll forward to closer to now,

Rosie (34:53)

Right.

Mm.

Mm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (35:18)

So with what happened, I was stabbed in the stomach and it caused all sorts of internal damage, which was, at least as they explained to me, sort of fixed at the time. And I wasn't, I was no longer in any way on like a day-to-day basis feeling like that was something that caused me problems. And then I wanted to have a baby. So pregnancy itself brought up a whole load of new stuff that I didn't know was there about

Rosie (35:26)

Hmm.

That's right.

Mm-hmm.

Wow.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (35:48)

how I felt about that part of my body, about the fact that I realized I was scared that I couldn't have a baby, somehow there was, I don't know, was something wrong with this part of me and it was something that wasn't for me. So that, again, this whole subject rid its ugly head once more. And then what happened is because of all the surgery I had and all the scarring I have, being pregnant pulled on all that original, you know, where I've been stitched back together.

Rosie (35:50)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (36:18)

And what they told me afters is like, well, look, you're going to need some other surgery to kind of close everything back up again. Okay. And that I kind of, so I had my daughter, I saw a surgeon a few months later and she said, well, look, whatever happens, it's going to be a while before we can do this. Your body goes through a lot of changes after pregnancy. So it's going to need to be at least a year before we, so I was like, okay, I'm parking that one. I wasn't getting specifically pain.

Rosie (36:23)

Wow. Wow.

Mm-hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (36:46)

I was like, I am absolutely not ready to go down this path again. So that that got put to one side. And then it was actually in this is where I'm leading to when I started my coach training, and I started having regular coaching with someone. And this this subject came back. And I want to say, of course, it did. Of course, it did. I mean, I again, wasn't particularly part of the plan. And I actually really felt in doing that, I was like, Okay, I've got unfinished business here.

Rosie (37:00)

Hmm.

Ha! Right!

Mm-hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (37:14)

And for me it was having this surgery to kind of repair what was now kind of needed we repairing Yeah, that's another whole story, but that was a massive massive Retraumatization actually going having that surgery. It really was I didn't I knew it was gonna be hard. I didn't expect it to be that And so

Rosie (37:28)

Right? Yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (37:38)

And so I was continuing to get coaching and thank goodness because that was really supporting me through this process. And then a bit later on I was like, okay, I really need some other, some other therapy again for this. So I went back to somatic experiencing, which helped me enormously in that period when I was recovering from my surgery. And then interestingly what happened, it was earlier last year actually, other stuff was coming up at home. So we're now back to things which have got nothing to do with.

Rosie (37:46)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (38:05)

these bigger subjects, where it's obvious that this was going to be something that was going to be difficult. I was getting, I was outbursting at home, there was some stuff with the kids coming up about different things going on. was like, there's something, there's something bigger here about boundaries, about feeling safe or not feeling safe. I went back, did some more somatic experiencing, which exposed some other things about, how I felt about other people coming into my space. What does that mean? Things that I hadn't realized. For me, it was just the

Rosie (38:19)

Mmm.

Mmm. Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (38:35)

Oh, I just get angry when the kids come rushing in and I'm in middle of working or something, but actually there was more going on. And I had really no idea that that was all connected. And so doing that and feeling this shift in the way I felt, and it must've been something that's been within me for years and years and years was so liberating. And then what happened, going all the way back to what your actual question was, this opportunity came up last September to speak at an event. So it's an event called B.U. Brand.

Rosie (38:54)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (39:06)

in Las Vegas, and the lady who runs it, she's all about women running their own businesses, it's really purpose driven businesses, and women talking about their passions and what they do. And she opened up a couple of spots for speakers. And so I don't know, I had this moment of kind of going, right, yeah, I've got to give this a go. This would be good for my business people seeing me. So I did a little video pitch about what I wanted to talk about, but I wasn't

Rosie (39:25)

Mm-mm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (39:31)

that specific, I was talking about wealth and what is life and what is freedom. And then when I got an answer back to say, okay, yeah, we've picked you. I don't know, it just seemed suddenly really obvious to me that I needed to speak about what happened to me when I was attacked. And I was like, okay, so not only you going to do your first kind of big public speaking event, we're going to throw in that, are you sure? And I just, exactly, and I don't know, I have these moments. It was just like, yeah, I I really

Rosie (39:34)

Mmm, mmm.

Bye.

You went all in!

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (40:00)

do and if I can do this, like think how much further that's now getting me on this journey with all these steps that I didn't, half of them I didn't know they were coming. I think that's the important message actually, that before things came up and then it was like, okay, maybe there's something wrong and maybe it's connected to this. This time it's like, I am choosing to take this to another step and I'm in complete control of what I say, what I don't say, how I'm going to say it.

Rosie (40:20)

Mm-mm.

Yes!

Mm-hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (40:30)

there's something completely different about that. And yeah, it was really difficult, but really fantastic experience. But yeah, I guess that's the that's the key. And I've, of course, now forgotten exactly what your question was. But it doesn't matter anymore. And so yeah, I stood up there in front of about 70 people and talked about talked about being attacked. And it was, yeah.

Rosie (40:45)

Doesn't matter.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (40:59)

I mean, I can feel it. can feel it now. It was, it was really hard. was really liberating. but the really amazing thing about it was that, I don't know, you can feel the energy coming back from the people sitting there. And there was just a moment when some, when people realized what I was actually talking about when this silence kind of fell. And, and then as I spoke, there were these sort of

Rosie (41:20)

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (41:24)

gasps or exclamations. Okay. And it was like, yeah, this, is a big deal. And that's an amazing, amazing thing as well about what's terrible with, honestly, it seems to be often with trauma is somehow we, it's hard to accept how big of a deal is because perhaps it is so big and feeling, sometimes you feel guilty about feeling the way we do was so much stuff comes up and like, this is a really big deal. do have the right to say so.

Rosie (41:27)

Mmm... Right!

Right.

Right.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (41:51)

And actually talking about it, the number of people that came back to me afterwards saying, thank you so much for sharing your story because, then they start telling me something that's happened to them that they have never spoken about before. And then like, you've just made it safe to speak about this. And then I was like, okay, okay. So this, this, you know, I need to do more of this than how, you know, if I can finally turn this thing that has created so many different issues and problems and

Rosie (42:00)

Wow. Wow.

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (42:18)

into something that actually helps other people in some way. Well, surely it's going to help me too, but it's actually bringing, I don't know, bringing something positive out of that whole awful, awful experience.

Rosie (42:23)

Mm.

Yes.

Yeah, it sounds like you really owned your narrative. Like you said, you were choosing what to share, how to share it. This is my story.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (42:39)

Yeah. Yeah.

Rosie (42:40)

And I wonder,

did you have many other experiences of feeling that way leading up to this moment in terms of the trauma you experienced? Was it usually you sharing it on your terms or was it different?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (42:49)

Mmm.

Yeah, good question. I guess not really. mean, of course, you know, the story has come up at different times in my life. Also, I have these massive scars. So sometimes people have said, you know, what's that? But actually, actually, there were many times why I ended up either having to or feeling like I should explain. And yeah. And that's, that's different. I, yeah, I was telling the story my way. And also with the

Rosie (43:00)

Yeah. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (43:22)

the message or the sort of conclusion that I wanted to give it instead of, you know, I've had medical people, of course, and the policy go was get that question, have you had any and then so any, you know, surgeries or, so I started explaining, I've had so many medical medical people get all into our so happen and who is that guy? it was like, it's not this terrible, you know, answer questions politely part of me has answered those questions before. I mean, I really should have just said that.

Rosie (43:32)

Mm-hmm.

my god!

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (43:51)

has really no relevance or and I've come out of Yeah, and I've come out of those experiences. And there was one time, especially was when I was trying to get pregnant, someone that went went into all that. And I came over, I cried for like three hours afterwards. I was like, why? it's like, why did I let that happen? And that, again, often happens with things about trauma, it's things about feeling like you've let certain things happen.

Rosie (43:52)

Yeah, I don't want to share that with you. You don't need to know it. Yeah.

course.

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (44:14)

And I mean, the most awful in that whole story of telling the story and the most awful event around that was of course, when this happened to me, I was attacked, I had to give evidence in court at the time. mean, this ended up, this ended up in court and you're, that's another whole situation. I was a witness. That's the other, I was not the victim. I was the witness. So it's like, wow. Yeah. So I've been attacked and I am now one of a certain number of witnesses to this criminal event.

Rosie (44:24)

yeah.

Wow. Wow.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (44:44)

And I had to tell my story and answer questions. But with, yeah, with a barrister in front of me who's, you know, trying to tell me that it didn't really happen that way and maybe it wasn't that bad, which is a horrendous, horrendous experience. So, yeah, there's something really powerful, I think, about now being able to say, okay, I have now told my story my way, on my terms, and that's something I'd like to keep doing, definitely.

Rosie (44:44)

Wow.

Your way, yes. Yeah.

Yeah. And I want to correct myself. I said that was the first time you shared it publicly, but actually if you went to court, you were publicly sharing your story, really.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (45:22)

Yeah, yeah, I hadn't really until we're talking about it. I hadn't thought about it that way. It's what popped into my mind is like, Oh, hang on that courtroom situation, which I had no real choice about and was not in any way. That was a completely different situation context. But I mean, part of me wanted to is like, especially I mean, it took a while before it got to court as is often the case. And so having to come back to it after it was almost a year later, was in itself not easy. But so there was a sort of I want to get this done. But I wasn't I wanted to kind of say my piece.

Rosie (45:31)

Mmm.

right.

Wow.

Yes.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (45:52)

But

there's a big difference between that what I had to say then and what I did at this event really talking about. And it was about, that's the real thing too, I guess. At this event, it was about me. I'm telling my story about me in court. It wasn't even about me. It was all about the person who attacked me. I wasn't the subject. And that's, yeah, that's a pretty tough, that just doesn't even say it properly. That's an awful thing to go through. And that really does not help with the trauma, the part that, you know.

Rosie (46:07)

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (46:20)

knowing

that it's not about you, actually, is how court felt.

Rosie (46:23)

Yeah, the justice system sounds

so flawed. I'm lucky enough not to have had to experience that, but talking to you and just what I hear about and a couple of friends who've had different experiences, but have had to go through the court system when they're a victim. It's almost like you're treated like a criminal as well. Would you agree with that?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (46:44)

To a certain extent, yeah, I mean, not so leading up to being in court. No, I mean, the police that were following this case, and I had there was somebody with additional training, who was the person that was getting my statements. And so yes, they were very, I could feel like they did everything they could. But in the end, the nature of a courtroom is there's the defense and a prosecution and which you're, you're a witness for kind of one or the other. And so yeah, I had so when

Rosie (46:50)

Okay.

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (47:14)

Yeah. First of all, I talked about the experience and that was with the, it was the, is in the UK, so the Crown Prosecution Service. So the person is just sort of getting me to tell, explain how awful it was, but they kind of on my side. And then there was course the person who attacked me and he's trying to somehow say that my story is different or that it somehow wasn't his fault. And yeah, that absolutely felt like we're trying to, I mean, we were teenagers, we had a relationship that we broke up and

Rosie (47:26)

Yeah, yep.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (47:41)

then this person turned around and stabbed me some weeks later. mean, there's no, there was, you know, there's no defending that there's no, and it was still these things about, you know, was my behavior somehow kind of provocative in some way? Could I, and then there was a sort of, couldn't I see it coming? Like, because his behavior was just like, are you serious? So yeah, that that does make you feel like you're somehow

Rosie (47:48)

No.

my goodness.

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (48:08)

maybe not quite a criminal, but certainly very much at fault for. Yeah, so to a certain extent, yes, I mean, that's, mean, that's my particular experience. But yeah, other people have other ones. I think that there wasn't very much ambiguity about what happened in my particular case.

Rosie (48:12)

Yeah.

Mmm, mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (48:29)

But nonetheless, nonetheless, felt like I was having to justify, explain, there was some suggestion I'd done something wrong. So in a situation where there might be any, and I know this happens a lot with sexual assault, there's a lot more question about circumstances and how was it interpreted? And my goodness, I don't know how, yeah, I don't know how people go through that. Because I think you ask yourself, the question, what's horrible is you ask yourself those questions, even if you know really, part of you kind of goes, maybe they're kind of right on some level and that's, yeah.

Rosie (48:32)

Yes. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

course.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (48:58)

It's a very traumatizing and very difficult, difficult experience.

Rosie (49:02)

I was just about to say that.

Yeah, you've got the trauma of what happened, then you're going through court and whatever else is involved. You're reliving the traumatizing event, but also I imagine the experience of being in court itself is traumatizing.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (49:22)

Absolutely. And then, then there's like a jury sitting there listening and deciding whether you you sounds like, you know, what you're saying is right or not. And, you know, who are they? And what do they and they only hear the bits and pieces that a whole lot of other people have decided on what is going to be presented today. And it's like, but I, know, I would have also talked about this. You don't Yeah, you have absolutely no control over that narrative. That's exactly what you were saying before. Yeah. And it's so unfair.

Rosie (49:39)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. How different did it feel to share your experience on your terms compared to the other times?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (50:01)

Mmm.

Yeah, completely different, really completely different. But so when I so I stood up on very, very scared step on stage, did my talk, like, so they got these amazing reactions back from people. So I was in a kind of and then there was another day of this conference. So I was in my in this kind of bubble of, and this is so cool. And I've shared this thing. And again, surrounded by these people who've really heard my story and the way I wanted to say it. So that that we shared something in that moment. And then

Rosie (50:21)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (50:34)

Right after that, I actually went to visit some friends who live in the US and I had a of a big, like exhaustion that kind of came over me at that point. And then it was, was really nice to be with them and it was very chilled out and I came home and I was kind of at that point, I was kind of feeling quite proud of what I'd done. And then about a month later, I got the video back from the conference. and when I watched it back, it was, it was terrible because all I could do all that then got

Rosie (50:43)

Yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (51:04)

sort of kicked off was a whole kind of self-critical like look you did this or you stood that way or but bigger than that there was a whole kind of what have you done what have you done and I've won again not I wasn't expecting to feel that I was like no what is this now what's this like I thought we were on an idea this is cool this is a good thing yeah and then like this whole other thing came up and I had to do quite a lot of work on that

Rosie (51:09)

Wow.

Yeah!

thought we were done with that!

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (51:33)

with another coach. And I, yes, I managed to change that narrative a bit. But actually, the thing that came up reading that book very recently from Brenny Brown, she talked about having a vulnerability hangover. And I thought, that's really interesting. I think that's part of what was happening. was like, I exposed this, this thought that kept coming was, yeah, but it's out there now. And it's like, where? mean, but somehow, yeah, I'd released my story into the into the world.

Rosie (51:33)

Hmm.

YAH!

Mmm.

Mmm... Right.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (52:03)

like, yeah, maybe I didn't have control of it anymore, or I'm not quite sure. But then when I read this thing about the vulnerability hangover, was like, that sounds a bit like that feeling. It's like, my goodness, I expose myself and now all these like other, you know, things are coming up and saying, no, no, no. And what did you do? So I now feel better about that. But it's still, you know, I have the video, it's something I want to share. It's something I want to, I'm still building up to it, actually, at this point.

Rosie (52:06)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (52:29)

because there's something different between being in the room with the people and connecting with them there and then, and then taking it, I don't know, the cold light of day, don't know, without context, and putting it in front of people who've never seen or heard it before. And that does feel different. And I'm still figuring out how I do that. But it's sort of shown me that there's definitely sharing the story and having this narrative and telling it the way I want to is certainly something I want to do.

Rosie (52:38)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (52:55)

But yeah, there are quite a lot of parameters that I think go with it. And I'm still figuring out what they are, I think. So that it is what you say it is. I'm owning the narrative, whereas somehow things like throwing a video out there that anyone can watch doesn't quite feel like that. And maybe that will change. Maybe that will change over time. I don't know. But for now, I'm still working. I'm still working that one out. But yeah, I do feel that sort of empowerment from saying, okay, I am starting to really take this story back and make it mine.

Rosie (53:03)

right.

Mmm.

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (53:23)

But yeah, it's a journey. not all the way there yet.

Or are we ever? mean, that's a great coaching. We never are really, but I'm on another journey. I'm on a new journey with it. I'm still, I'm not quite sure what the next step is, I guess.

Rosie (53:28)

Right, are we ever really? Right.

Mmm, mmm.

Right. And

do you think sharing our story is an important part of healing?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (53:47)

I really do. Again, it's got to be the right time though, I think. I don't think, I don't think, I know I certainly wasn't ready to share that story in the way that I did even six months before I actually did it. That wasn't even something I was thinking about. So I do think it's really valuable. I think the way and the how we share,

there's different parts to it. It's sharing the story with a therapist that can already be like a first and very huge step. Some people have been living with these things for years, and never told anybody. And yeah, there are different steps. And I'm not saying everyone should stand up on a stage and tell the story in front of 70 people. don't even think that's like okay for a lot of people. But finding who you can and how you can and being able to, I think that is a really important part of

Rosie (54:24)

Mm-mm.

Yeah

Mm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (54:42)

healing. It's part of your story. It's part of who you are. There's no shame to that. And a lot of what we feel about it is shame, even though, like I said, is amazing, someone was completely unjustified came along decided to attack me. But nonetheless, nonetheless, I feel I feel shame about it. And that it seems to go hand in hand with trauma. And so we have to be very careful about how we manage that. So yes, I think telling a story is a really big part of healing, but the how and

Rosie (54:47)

Yes. Yes.

Hmm. Hmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (55:12)

when and with who, they're different for different people and you to be really careful about that, otherwise it just becomes re-traumatising again.

Rosie (55:20)

Yes,

exactly. And this ties in with what you were saying. I don't think there's necessarily a right or wrong way to go through your healing journey. It looks different for everybody. And just because getting up on a stage and sharing your story worked for you, it might not work for me. Maybe it looks like talking to a friend, writing it down. I don't know, but it looks different. And I say this about grief as well.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (55:22)

Yeah.

Mm.

Rosie (55:50)

There's no right or wrong way to grieve. Just because someone says you need to fit into the five stages of grief. You know, just like that. I mean, actually, speaking of grief, has there been a grieving process dealing with your trauma?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (55:50)

Mm.

Ooh, I feel like that's the first time someone's asked me that question. Yes.

Yeah, it's to do with, I'm not sure I've articulated it this way before. I think it's to do with these different, I mean, I've always been me, but these different people I have been and these stages I've gone through. Like I look back now sometimes and kind of go, I can't believe like when I was younger, this kind of, okay, it's done. I've done some sessions with a therapist. This is done. I've kind of healed physically, you know, subject closed.

Rosie (56:33)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (56:48)

I've had times of kind of looking back and then going, my goodness, I was so stupid or unrealistic or so not true. That's all that I was able capable of doing at that time. And at the time, people are like, my goodness, it's so cool the way you just got back into everything. And yeah, but also, like that. That's like all I knew how to do at that point. And that's okay. And now that's not how I see it or approach it. But there's a kind of a grieving

Rosie (57:09)

Yes, yes.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (57:19)

No, it's maybe different. It's like a grieving for this person. I suppose there's still part of me that feels like if that hadn't happened. I don't know who would I have been or what and still some idea that maybe that was that that would have been better, like without the scars without the experience without that and this other part of me kind of says well no not at all and it's all part of my but yeah, I think I think that is a grieving in there for this idea of there's two things as like the person I think I

Rosie (57:26)

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (57:49)

at some point have thought that I might have been. And then also these different people I kind of have been through this whole journey, there was the, the person who was really like said, go, go, go and fight it. mean, when I was younger, I really got into Iron Man, like I trained like a lunatic. And I, I'm happy about that. But I honestly think that some of what was driving me there was something about still needing to prove I was alive, that my body could do things that there was, there was definitely something there. And sometimes I felt unhappy about

Rosie (57:55)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (58:18)

that person. And other times I'm like, okay, but that's, it's also okay. And I think this, you these constant, if it's grief or it's shedding of layers or versions, or I'm not quite sure what the right, what the right words are. But yeah, it definitely, so when you said grieving it, I felt something there. So yeah, there's definitely a, there's something about grief in there too. Absolutely.

Rosie (58:22)

Mmm.

It's messy, isn't it?

You felt something? Yeah.

Trauma's messy.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (58:42)

Oh, it really is. And I said, I

said this, I have someone that coaches me. She's been through a whole of traumatic experiences to omega. Enough now. Like, I've had enough. Like, yeah, do we have to do this? You're like, something's come up again. Right. Okay, what is it? And it's kind of nice to be able to just laugh about it and just go, okay, right. But yeah, I mean, on the upside of when I'm in that energy, it's like, well, you know, look what it enables me to feel and understand.

Rosie (58:50)

Yeah, did we have to?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (59:11)

that happens with other people. I don't think without having at least experienced some of these things to a certain extent, you can fully kind of get kind of how people feel in those moments. And yeah, another part that's just gone like, I could have done without it. Quite frankly, I've been like, I've just been a lot simpler without all this stuff. But there you go.

Rosie (59:20)

Mmm.

Yeah!

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (59:36)

there's some this expressions in English to this one about in French about, know, you know, life being along and sort of tumultuous river, something like that. And then it just kind of is and if you know, if it hadn't been this, I guess there would have been other there would have been other things. But yeah, yeah, trauma is part of my is part of my story. But I guess that's what you're saying. What's shifting now is I'm kind of turning it into my own narrative about that. And that's, yeah, that feels a lot more empowering than

Rosie (1:00:05)

Yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (1:00:05)

I don't know,

a few years ago, when it was more kind of dealing with the things as and when they kind of read their ugly heads. It's different. It is different.

Rosie (1:00:11)

Yeah, yeah. And as an

outsider, think it's beautiful to witness somebody owning their story and just, I don't know, hearing someone, you're bearing your soul sharing something so vulnerable. Like even in this podcasting format, like thank you for sharing that so openly and vulnerable, vulnerable, vulnerable, bleh, bleh, bleh.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (1:00:37)

vulnerable.

That's a tricky word.

Rosie (1:00:40)

That ruins that.

Vulnerably. There you go. I'm going to say that again. Thank you for sharing that so openly and vulnerably because I think...

Well, it's a way to form human connection, but I also think for our listeners, there's going to be people who feel seen, feel less alone, go, it's not just me.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (1:01:05)

Mm.

Yeah, I'm really feeling that as you say it. And it's, it's true. It's really true. And thank you for creating this safe environment. I haven't I haven't spoken about this on a podcast before. And I've been on a few podcasts. So thank you for creating a space where it's where it's okay. And that I can, yeah, I can speak about this in my own way. However, that, you know, whatever that looks like. So thank you.

Rosie (1:01:13)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Right, right. And that's always my goal.

People sometimes ask me, what do you want to talk about on the podcast? I'm like, well, you're the guest. It's up to you, you know? And so that's, that's always the goal. And I hope it didn't feel like I was leading things in any particular direction. It's always from a place of curiosity when I ask these questions.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (1:01:45)

Mm.

Yeah, no, that's absolutely how it felt. It really did. And like I mentioned before, I mean, plenty of other people asked me questions about it, and it did not feel like that. definitely know what the difference is. Yeah. So yeah. Yes. Thank you.

Rosie (1:01:57)

Yeah.

Mmm, right. Yeah. Yeah. yeah.

Thank you. My final question. And I think it's been an underlying theme in this conversation. And this is something I ask every guest. So Mary, what does freedom mean to you?

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (1:02:24)

Hmm. Ooh, I'm now wondering between what I was going to say and then thinking, given what we've just said, it's not quite the same. So in actual fact, based on everything we've said today, and I haven't thought about that until we had this conversation, so thank you. But this thing that you said owning your narrative, and it's not like that's not a phrase I've heard before, but in terms of my story, my history, this trauma, owning my narrative about that trauma is...

Rosie (1:02:28)

Ehh!

Mmm.

Mm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (1:02:53)

definition of freedom for me and I yeah I'm still figuring out exactly what form that takes I guess but yeah that's definitely that's definitely part of being freer for sure.

Rosie (1:02:55)

Mmm.

Yeah.

owning your narrative, whatever that looks like. And I think your narrative can change just because the way you're telling your story today is a certain way. You in six months, a year, five years, it could be different.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (1:03:14)

Mmm.

Yeah, I think it really could, like said, standing up on stages and sharing and that was absolutely not part of the idea before. Now it is. So who knows, like you say a year from now. And you know, maybe, maybe my version of the narrative a year from now will be much more about this question of the justice system. And I keep seeing things about other people who've experienced different things, we're speaking very public about it too. And part of me is drawn to it, part of me is uncomfortable with it. And I don't know how that's going to

Rosie (1:03:34)

Right, right, yeah.

Mmm.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (1:03:54)

change. So yeah, you know, maybe in a year from now, I'm gonna be, you know, campaigning about stuff or I don't know who knows. Or something completely different. Yeah. Who knows? And that's okay. Yeah, that's okay. There's no Yeah, that whole it's a journey. There isn't a kind of predefined destination with this. It's just let's see what happens. No. my goodness that that as well. When I first had some therapy that sort of things the therapist kept saying.

Rosie (1:03:54)

Right.

We could be talking about something, something else entirely. Yeah. Right. It's okay. Yeah.

Yes, there's no shoulds here. Yeah.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (1:04:22)

there's an awful lot of shoulding, Mary. let's let's get rid of the shoulding. yeah. Yeah, that's always stuck with me. Yeah, we've got a lot of those.

Rosie (1:04:24)

You

That's a hard one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it

was a guest said to me once, stop shooting on yourself. And I thought, huh, yeah, exactly. Stop shooting on yourself. Yeah, it does.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (1:04:38)

Yeah.

Yeah, it deserves to be a verb.

Like outbursting.

Rosie (1:04:46)

Yeah, there's two

new ones now. Mary, I just want to say thank you again. This has been such a great conversation and has taken so many twists and turns. And I feel like I know you just that little bit better now than I did before. So thank you for getting vulnerable and just showing up and speaking out. It's been a really enlightening conversation. Thank you.

Mary Guerdoux-Harries (1:05:10)

Thank you. I really enjoyed it genuinely.

Rosie (1:05:12)

Yeah, likewise.