82: Healing Trauma Without Reliving It: A Groundbreaking Approach with Kasia Makuch-Cole

Rosie (00:00)

Hello, hello, and welcome to episode 82 of the Pursuit of Freedom podcast. So excited to have you here. I wanted to jump in because I mentioned last week that I'm trying something different. I'm putting out the next few episodes that I've already recorded with guests, unedited. The only editing I've done is topping and tailing it. So at the beginning, I chuck the intro in, at the end, I chuck the outro in, and I just sort of trim off the beginning if there was any sort of...

filler or fluff then before we actually got into the episode. So very scary for me. This is totally unedited. Now I don't know why I'm making such a big deal out of it because all I do in my editing is I might shorten pauses, I might get rid of a couple of ums, ahs, maybe on one or two occasions I've deleted a small section because I didn't like it anymore.

So I don't really do a lot of editing at all, it's bare bones. So why am I so terrified? Don't know, enjoy it, let me know what you think. I'm trying to make my processes more sustainable and this is one of those ways. So enjoy the episode and if you haven't already, check out episode 81 where I was talking about values. I've already heard from a few of you who really enjoyed the exercise in that episode. So if you're feeling a little bit stuck right now, go give it a listen. If not, enjoy today's episode.

Rosie (02:12)

Welcome back to the Pursuit of Freedom podcast, everyone. I'm really excited for today's conversation. Joining me is Kasha Makukhol. She's all the way in London, actually. She's a psychotherapist, an academic. She's the founder of Balance Psychotherapy Clinic. And Kasha has a really refreshing take on mental health, integrating body awareness, mindfulness, neurobiology.

And she's really passionate about helping people find balance and healing, joy, purpose in life. So if you've ever felt like traditional mental health approaches have missed the mark a bit for you, I'm putting my hand up there, or you're curious to learn more about achieving balance in your life and feeling joy and fulfillment, I think this conversation is going to be for you. So Kasha, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm excited to have you here.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (03:07)

Thank you so much for having me. Such a pleasure meeting you, hearing your story and I'm very glad that I can share my approach to psychotherapy. So it's more like an approach to approaches. It's a very strange thing. I'm not changing anything so no one needs to worry but it's about how we as therapists approach the techniques and as we as therapists approach the modality.

Rosie (03:11)

Yeah, I'm excited!

Okay.

Okay.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (03:36)

So I remember when we met before, you mentioned someone you know, who came for an assessment and came out very distressed because the assessment was about talking about the whole trauma of her life. And then listing it almost out there when she

Rosie (03:48)

Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (04:04)

came out of from an appointment, she was very distressed and dysregulated. So it's something I want to change. Starting from there, every single session can regulate a client who comes to into the therapeutic space. And the way how we can do it is by balancing affect. So

Rosie (04:18)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (04:34)

Let's

bring us a little bit into a space what affect is and how we can detect that. So what if we think about an inner system, kind of inner solar system? Imagine that you have a solar system on the inside and almost like going beyond your boundaries of your body and

Rosie (04:53)

Mm-hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (05:03)

almost like spreading, it's almost bigger than you are. You have got a sun in the center of the of your solar system and then you have got planets, millions of stars, the space in between them. So let's call those planets and stars and everything that is in the solar system, let's call them objects.

Rosie (05:07)

Mm-hmm.

Okay, yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (05:32)

And that sun might symbolize compassion for us or love or compassionate love, gentleness, kindness. And then let's imagine that the sun shines on all those planets and stars with warmth and compassion. Those stars and planets will be thoughts and emotions, body sensations.

our illnesses, suffering, trauma, just everything out there. And we can approach that to start with, to balance with compassion and kindness and gentleness. So whatever happens in session or in assessment, we can bring that into a space of compassion and kindness. So when I see someone for an assessment,

Rosie (06:08)

Mm-hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (06:31)

I don't need to know the story of that person's life. It's enough when the person says, I went through trauma. And that's enough for the assessment. If someone needs to say whether it's a sexual trauma or there is a violence or any other trauma, that's enough. That person already talked about it within one sentence. I suffered trauma. And we don't need to go into...

Rosie (06:34)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Can I interrupt because this is fascinating.

I have seen many psychologists and psychiatrists and whenever I see a new one, they want my life story and I have to go through every single trauma I have lived and they're asking all these questions for every single detail. But are you saying that that's not necessary?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (07:18)

No, it's not the nature of trauma. It's it impacts our neurobiology in exactly the same way. And the affect we're going to work is exactly the same. It's going to be despair, helplessness, terror, and so on. So we can assume what the affect is that we're going to work with. The affect is the lively vibration is like an emotion.

Rosie (07:48)

Mm-hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (07:48)

But with affect, can say emotion is more precise. When we say sadness, we know that it's sadness. We might identify where it is in the body. But when we say affect, we are open for exploration and for empathetic curiosity. We don't need to jump into conclusion. We do not need to name it yet.

Because by naming it, we're already formulating what it is and then we know we're going in a certain direction. So the first, that's why we don't need to do all of this in an assessment. There is a process in therapy and we can do it slowly. Session by session, when someone comes, one needs to be ready to open that space. Right? And then when we say, let's open that space,

Rosie (08:23)

Hmm.

Hmm... Mm-hmm...

Kasia Makuch-Cole (08:44)

I would discourage people to go into detailing the past. Our past is received by our neurobiology. How this affected us. It's much better to start from the present moment. How does this affect you now in the present moment? How do you feel it in your body?

Rosie (09:05)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (09:14)

So that would be the first kind of first step of it. How do you feel your trauma in your body now?

Where is it in the body? Is there an image?

Rosie (09:26)

You know, I have never,

I have never been asked this by a health professional.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (09:31)

There are techniques. One of the techniques to start working with affect, very good one, actually designed by philosopher and someone who started with Rogers is a man called Jendlin. He designed technique called focusing.

Rosie (09:56)

Mm-hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (09:59)

It's an amazing technique and it's underestimated in psychotherapy. It's a technique to work with a present moment when you ask a client or a friend, how are you really today? It straight away brings you into the present moment. How are you really today? And then you're moving the clutter away. Like, you know, what needs to be cooked for today? What sort of

Rosie (10:18)

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (10:29)

what sort of task I need to accomplish today, do I have washing to be done, whatever comes into mind or whichever sensation because sometimes we have got a sensation like when people suffer with chronic depression they will have that sensation in for let's say in the chest it's dark it's heavy and that's the sensation that it stays with them. So let's say we're not going to work with this today

Rosie (10:36)

Yeah

Kasia Makuch-Cole (10:58)

We're just going to watch it from a distance. And despite that sensation, I would ask, how are you really today? And then there is that sort of simmering unknown comes into play. That sort of feel of being a little bit uncomfortable when I feel it in the stomach. Kind of not really, we don't put it into words yet. It's that sort of

Rosie (11:12)

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (11:25)

feel if you want to do it with me, please go ahead and just kind of like ask yourself, how am I really today? And when you don't don't talk about the task or whether we're recording correctly or whether you have got the, you know, everything is going smoothly and you really dive into your body, you can really feel that unknown sense of unknown.

Rosie (11:34)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (11:52)

And then the first kind of way of approaching it would be not to ask what's the emotion that is there, but perhaps what's sensation, physical sensation.

Rosie (12:03)

Yeah,

because so often we try to articulate what we're feeling and intellectualize it. But if you're talking about a sensation, yeah. And actually, right.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (12:10)

Yes, and we run into our head and we don't have an access to our body. But where

are we suffering? We're suffering in our body. Yes.

Rosie (12:20)

Okay, I wanna go

more into this. I had a listener ask me, isn't trauma in our head? But what we're just talking about is sensation. So what would your take on that be?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (12:30)

it's in the body and it's in our neurobiology. That's why it's really worth working with those sensations because the sensation of joy is a sensation. So how on earth we can get to being peaceful and joyful if we don't work with our body, we're just working with the narrative. Narrative is secondary to what's in the body.

And a skillful therapist needs to be able to name that. That's why it's very important to pause it, to not go into the narrative so quickly, because narrative can be faulty as well. We have got like thousands of thoughts a day. We are very, very compulsive in our thinking. The narrative very often can be really, faulty. What it is, no matter what sort of mental health we work with.

Rosie (13:10)

Yes.

Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (13:28)

is to bring back these two sensations in our body and skillfully and with curiosity name it just with a sensation if it's numbness let it be numbness

Rosie (13:41)

Mm-hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (13:43)

If it's some sort of heaviness, let it be heaviness. then slowly, just to redirect our brain from creating narrative and bringing it into the body, it's worth asking questions like, it have a color or an image? Or how would you kind of, what's the image that it's kind of coming into your imagination when you're coming?

Rosie (14:00)

Okay.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (14:12)

into meeting with that sensation and slowly slowly let it open up.

Rosie (14:16)

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (14:23)

And then if it's, let's say it's a color of gray and it's a color of numbness and let's say it's a ball, gray ball that is just unpenetrable. Let's ask questions like what does it want? What does it need?

Rosie (14:30)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (14:47)

And I'm not going to ask you, I'm just going to kind of work with my body. you, you, do you want to?

Rosie (14:51)

Well, you can. I'm open

if you want to give us a demo because this is, it's fascinating. And what you're talking about sounds very primal. You're not intellectualizing it. It's really interesting. And I haven't experienced this with a therapist before, so I'm happy to do whatever you walk me through.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (15:10)

So when you're asking yourself, how am I really today? What's come? What does it come for you in your body?

Rosie (15:19)

sort of in my belly and a bit in my throat. That's where I'm feeling tension, I think.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (15:26)

tension

and does the tension have a color?

Rosie (15:33)

sort of pulsing between orange and red.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (15:38)

pulsing. That's such a powerful image, the pulsation of red. Is there any other image?

Rosie (15:49)

That's very empty.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (15:53)

some sort of emptiness and pulsation.

Rosie (15:55)

emptiness

and just the very strong colours, very consuming.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (16:02)

And if you are going to just slowly slowly start to think about emotion.

Rosie (16:10)

Mm.

the first word that comes up is anxiety. And I don't know if that's the best word, but that's the word that's coming up and a feeling of like uneasiness.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (16:29)

uneasiness. Is there a fear as well or some sort of uneasiness only?

Rosie (16:30)

Mmm.

or I think I'd call it worry. There's worry.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (16:41)

Is it familiar? Does it sit very often there or it's just today?

Rosie (16:47)

often often

Kasia Makuch-Cole (16:49)

It's often there.

So it's that sort of a feel of worry, pulsating worry in an empty space, pulsating colors.

Rosie (16:55)

Hmm.

Mm.

Yeah, and I wouldn't say it's a new sensation, but it's not something that's there all the time. So it kind of comes and goes, but recently for the past couple of months is very dominant.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (17:23)

And does it come with other thoughts or images?

Rosie (17:32)

It comes with flashbacks, I think, to losing my parents. That the feelings of that worry, uneasiness, the anxiety definitely takes me back to there. So there's flashes of those incidents.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (17:51)

of loss, loss of lack of safety.

Rosie (17:52)

Mmm.

Mmm.

think there's a bit of both there. There's a lot of fear tied to it of losing people I love.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (18:18)

So that's sort of pulsating fear of loss.

Rosie (18:21)

Mmm,

it's in a constricting feeling.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (18:26)

And just always, whenever it comes, never criticize yourself for that. Never feel like, God, it comes again. Oh God, you know, I'll never be able to get rid of this. Always nourish it. It's a message. It's a messenger. And with nourishment and kindness.

Rosie (18:40)

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (18:52)

of almost nourishment and kindness of that safe, ideal parent. Just attend to that space with that, I hear you, I see you. And you can say that in your body to that pulsating space, I hear you, I see you. You are within my cosmos. You are within my solar space. I'm the sun. I'll see you.

Rosie (19:03)

Mmm.

you

Kasia Makuch-Cole (19:22)

and just make sure that you're holding it gently. Don't fight with it. We can't rearrange the solar swamp.

Rosie (19:31)

Dammit. But why, why

is it that we're almost taught or conditioned to think we can control it and we can just push it down? You know, people go, you know, chin up, keep, you know, chin up. Let's, you know, keep going. Why are we so conditioned to do that? Because from what you're just saying, we don't, it's probably not very helpful to do that. And in fact, I think it's a fallacy that we have control over those sensations and feelings and thoughts.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (20:00)

Yes

and by controlling those sensations and thoughts we're controlling our creativity. We can't be creative, we can't play. All our energy goes into controlling that one sensation. When you are a full solar system, so I'm guessing there is another planet saying chin up, you need to be strong.

Rosie (20:22)

Yes!

Kasia Makuch-Cole (20:26)

Is there, where is it in your body that sort of feel that says?

Rosie (20:31)

It's like my shoulders, my back, you

know? It's a white.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (20:36)

So that's the one. That's the

one. And is there any way that you can go into the dialogue with that space and say, you know what, I got it. I've got it. You don't you don't need to. You are very useful. My shoulders, my my kind of energy, that sort of energy, right in shoulders and chin up. need to survive, fight.

Rosie (20:47)

Mmm.

Heh.

Mmm! Mmm!

Kasia Makuch-Cole (21:05)

right? But you can say to yourself, I'm okay, I've got it. You don't need to switch that energy on in my inner space. And you can switch something else. And I'm wondering, if you were going to ask that pulsating space here, what does it need? What does it want? What would it say?

Rosie (21:14)

Mmm... Mmm...

Yeah.

just wants love, compassion, someone to listen, not judge. Just, you know, a big, a big hug.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (21:44)

a big hug

and you know what check with your body where is that space in your body that can listen that can be a good companion that gives

Rosie (21:58)

I just feel,

as you're talking, just feel this, there's a sensation of it spreading through here. It's this, just like a constriction is being relieved. And I go, so I don't know where the listening part of my body is, but I feel my chest opening.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (22:15)

It feels like it's in your breath.

Rosie (22:18)

Mmm, yeah. Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (22:22)

If you can just be with that breath for a while, there is some sort of freedom in it, isn't it? Some sort of it's listening, it's compassionate, but there is a lot of freedom in that breath.

Rosie (22:28)

Mm. Mm.

Hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (22:42)

does that breath, the breath when you're kind of focusing on it, does it have a color or an image?

Rosie (22:51)

It's a very pale blue.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (22:55)

pale blue.

What's the sensation?

Rosie (23:05)

I feel very light and just like by the ocean and the air the breeze is just flowing. There's a lot of flow.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (23:17)

It's flow, freedom, creativity, openness. And I'm guessing it doesn't need anything, doesn't want anything, but just ask. Yeah.

Rosie (23:18)

Mmm.

No. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, even just having that short conversation.

I have a feeling of relief. I haven't actually said what I'm intellectualizing and what my stresses are at all, but already I feel like,

Kasia Makuch-Cole (23:55)

What if you hold in your mind at the same time, the pulsation here, the redness and the light blue of the freedom and openness. Just take time and hold it in your mind for a bit and see what comes, whether there is a sensation or a color or an image that comes to you.

Rosie (24:02)

Mm.

I can feel the blue is very calming and it's sort of swirling around that pulsing red. Just not overtaking it but just sort of...

Kasia Makuch-Cole (24:44)

holding it gently.

Rosie (24:44)

What's the w-

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (24:50)

They can coexist, right?

Rosie (24:52)

Yes! Yes! Yeah...

Hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (24:59)

We

are vastness. We are such a beauty on the inside. We are made of stars. And you have the power to redirect to an object on the inside you want. And you have the power to redirect your energy to the object the way you want. You can create a battle on the inside that you will take the

energy from the shoulders and your battle, the harm, the trauma, the pulsating red. And in this way you create even more suffering for yourself. Or you can take the energy from the breath, the affect that is there, the beauty of freedom, gentleness, that sort of easiness, right?

Rosie (25:52)

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (25:57)

and you're holding these two spaces together every day. They don't really change that much in the body, they do, but it takes time. So you'll always find that freedom in your breath and then holding it for yourself because that's where healing is. The way how you are creatively using affect in your body and on the outside of your body because you can

have the affect also that you can experience if there is absolutely no nurturing affect on the inside. And there are situations like that, that we are suffering so badly that there is nothing on the inside that we can lean on, or it doesn't feel like there is. Our neurobiology is so swept by the affects that are harmful that we can't access anything else. Then let's lean something outside.

like nature, like ocean, like nice bath, whatever it is, kind of like swimming, whatever people like, right? Lots of warmth, lots of physical sensation, we can give ourselves a hug as well, whatever helps to recreate that feelings, a chat with a good friend, connection to a group you love.

Rosie (27:04)

Yeah

Kasia Makuch-Cole (27:27)

that sort of feel and even if we are so, we don't have access to the nice nurturing affect on the inside to always make sure that we're telling ourselves that we do not switch the energy from the shoulders that you have got there.

Or some people might have them in the stomach, that critical energy that say, you should have been better by now, or why do you react to the external circumstances this way? Or why on earth haven't you thought about it before? That sort of critic, it's never, we all have them, those thoughts, but they are not creative and they do not make us better. It's that sort of energy that if one engages with it, okay.

Rosie (27:56)

Hmm?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (28:18)

It is an energy that sometimes make people succeed in something like they go into that fight flight mode and they push through something. don't know, exam or a more traumatic event. Someone passed away. We need to push through. need to do dance and go through that. But then we need to know that I'm using that energy. And at some point I need to stop because that energy at some point

Rosie (28:30)

Mm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (28:47)

that affect of self-criticism, that often of just getting ourselves together and go through things. At some point, that affect might turn towards us and it will be very self-critical. So we just need to be sure that we know which sort of affect we're using.

And then, you know, taking that further, if we work with this, then we can apply different therapeutic methods. If the other goes in our thinking, because people are very, very different, then let's use cognitive behavioral strategies. Some people would say, God, I just don't understand the talk about affect or energy.

Rosie (29:17)

Okay.

Yeah, I was, I want to go

into this because healing people want to heal and

Are we healing using our mind, using our body?

My dog just made a sound then, I don't know if you heard it. went, mm. She says, heal with my body, mm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (29:50)

I love you.

Here it is! gosh, my dog knows what physical session is. He starts to bark at the end. It's so funny.

Rosie (30:03)

Really? Of course, of course. But is there, this is

a bit of a loaded question, but is there one way that works best to help people on their healing journey?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (30:14)

I don't think there is. Or I would say there are different languages to describe a similar reality and the way we can't agree on healing because we just use different language to heal it, to describe.

Rosie (30:29)

Mmm...

Mmm...

Kasia Makuch-Cole (30:32)

I use the language of affect because I come from psychoanalytic object relations and that it's vague. So it's easier for me than to adopt it to a client who wants to talk about energy or a client who wants to talk about thought processes or a client who wants to talk about emotions. So it's very easy for me to adopt, but I still can almost like the simmering baseline to know

Rosie (30:37)

Right.

We're out.

Uh-huh.

Mm-hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (31:02)

to bring the balance between the kind of destructive impulse and the nourishing impulse in our body. So I'm changing the language to impulses instead of affect. But kind of like, I would use any language that works for someone. So let's say someone would say, you know, I have these narratives in my body and I'm constantly obsessively

Rosie (31:15)

Yeah.

and

Kasia Makuch-Cole (31:31)

have one thought that I'm not good enough or I should live in other country or I should live I should live somewhere else or it's you know we can have kind of that impulsive obsessive thought coming to us all the time and then it just lowers our mood because the brain is then preoccupied with that. So interestingly I would use exactly the same strategy for it.

Rosie (31:55)

Mm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (32:01)

I would say when you're thinking that, where do you feel it in your body? So when you have that thought where if a person has gotten access to their body, the difference is when someone says, I don't feel my body from here down, that's the problem for therapy. But if I, if let's say I'm not good enough and I would say, gosh, I constantly feel it in my forehead.

Rosie (32:19)

Mmm. Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (32:32)

and I would say so what's the color there or what's the image and the image I come with is a low gear that wasn't good enough in a primary school or no one noticed.

So I would then say, what does the little girl want? What does the little girl needs?

And you know, that logo, the image might say, I was scared and no one was noticing what I actually wanted to do and how, yeah, I didn't feel safe to express myself or my needs. And if I was expressing myself, I wasn't expressing it in the way other people wanted.

Rosie (32:59)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (33:29)

So then I would ask the laugher, know, so what would you like? And she would say, maybe just draw the way I wanted to draw. And then the same process again, bringing that, you know, so what would you like to feel? You know, it looks like, you know, you laugher would like to be more creative to feel, to feel less constrained.

Rosie (33:33)

huh.

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (33:59)

More good enough or just good enough. Just be yourself.

Rosie (34:04)

This is so simple, I have never been asked what do I want?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (34:05)

So I don't... It is extremely simple and I don't ask... I wouldn't ask about

my history.

Rosie (34:14)

I don't know if it's the same in the UK, I'm sure it's very similar to Australia, but the big thing here in psychology is CBT and that's what all the GPs are pushing people to do, cognitive behavioral therapy. I've done it all and I hate it and I just roll my eyes.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (34:29)

Mm-hmm.

It might be useful if there is that underlying, you know, like that underlying dialogue applied. Because then we can bring it to CBT and say, you know, in reality, you know, how are you feeling about yourself now, right? You are a certain age and you can then bring the reality to the thought that is there, but also to acknowledge

Rosie (34:38)

Run.

Right, okay.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (35:00)

the roots of that in the body and not in the history. Please notice that I don't ask myself, how was your, how was your childhood? who cares? What cares is what holds me back from fully living my life. Because what what suited you, what didn't suit me as a child and it might suit someone else or someone that might have a

Rosie (35:11)

No. Yeah. Yeah.

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (35:29)

Better neurobiology, be more resilient as a child. sensitive child, difficult to perhaps, not every parent is able to adjust their strategies to every child they have. Sometimes parents learn from children that are so different to them. It's just the biggest joke one ever have in the family.

Rosie (35:43)

Hmm

Yeah

Kasia Makuch-Cole (35:55)

when you have got a certain temperament and then you have a child is completely different.

And of course we're all learning about each other, but it's, you know, it's a process, it's a journey. And that's just if there is a trauma or if people have got parents with some illnesses, addiction, that's another part of the story. To hold that on the inside in the body, including taking neurobiology, genetics into play, certain conditions that we have.

Rosie (36:08)

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (36:30)

So that needs to be also examined. It's not like we're just examining the thoughts or not even just the affect. We need to locate the affect in the body because let's say if someone is diabetic or someone is in perimenopausal stage, there will be sensation in the body that one needs to look after and we need to ask the sensation in the body what they want.

Rosie (36:33)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (36:59)

Because those sensations in the body, my mind needs treatment. You know, that I'm feeling very different to how I used to be. There is, of course, there is a psychological part of it. There is a loss, like when we're aging. But it might be also that we need to work with our body to make it functioning a little bit better for us, because people have got families or jobs or whatever, you know.

Rosie (37:13)

Right.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (37:28)

responsibilities. So it's about gently and with curiosity examining the body how this of the body our home can work for us very well. So mental health is not something that is disconnected from our biology. We are all together including spirituality all together.

Rosie (37:35)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (37:55)

all together.

Rosie (37:57)

It is, I love

this holistic view and it very much feels like a blend of, you know, the very tangible hard science and there feels to be like a spiritual element to it as well. And it can coexist, you know, it's not either you believe in science or you don't. It's, there's some things that I guess science can't quite explain and there's some things that's, yeah, together.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (38:23)

or it might be working together that we take into...

Because science is to test our assumptions. if someone... And it's really good to really test what we're doing, whether this is working for us. And then we know that therapies like compassion-focused therapy, mindfulness-based CBTs, these...

Rosie (38:31)

Well true, yeah.

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (38:50)

these approaches work very well. And my suggestion is they work very well because we work with two opposite affects that we bring whatever there is that suffers in us. Even if it's trauma, that the trauma kind of channels some destructive affect really. You terror, despair.

Rosie (39:02)

Right.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (39:18)

or terrible anger, these are destructive affects. They don't make us joyful, but they did. And then to bring something that heals and affect that heals is compassion, nurturing, kindness, gentleness, loving experiences. No, we we don't hear it's a question what heals, right? I've been asking myself that for a very long time.

Rosie (39:26)

Mm.

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (39:48)

It doesn't understand our understanding. It doesn't. Because we understand something, it doesn't. It might bring certain...

Rosie (39:52)

Mm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (39:59)

quality of peace, but it might also put us into a mood of resentment, lack of forgiveness, anger, right?

Rosie (40:01)

Hmm.

Mmm, I wanna know your thoughts. Sorry.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (40:11)

And then we always question ourselves

whether the narrative that we created through certain techniques, whether the narrative is correct. And we can live our life to the end of our life changing the narrative of what's happened. Instead of basically looking after what happened in our body and then bringing the opposite affect to heal. You can take the affect.

Rosie (40:20)

Yeah

Bringing the opposite affect

to heal. Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (40:39)

And it's not like I gave you the affect when you reconnected with that light blue. It's already there. You have got the power. It's just you need a skillful therapist to gently suggest where that affect might be. If someone practice it, yes. If someone practice that sort of work, the person will kind of, it's, you know, if you would say, no, no, it's not a breath. I would just let's move somewhere else. Where is it?

Rosie (40:56)

Right. To guide you. Yeah.

Mmm... Mmm...

Kasia Makuch-Cole (41:09)

that sort of kind of

exploration of trying to find it in your body, because it doesn't feel then like you learn something or you're incorporated something that is not yours. You know, it's almost like you're inviting therapist as a guest into your home.

Rosie (41:22)

Mm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (41:28)

checking what's behind the sofa, we make a little bit more light into the living room and bringing the curtains to open the curtains, that sort of feel.

Rosie (41:31)

Yeah!

Mmm... Mmm...

Kasia Makuch-Cole (41:42)

Sorry, you wanted

to ask a question and I interrupted you.

Rosie (41:45)

or I was the one who interrupted. This is.

A very, I don't think enjoyable is the word, but it is a very fulfilling conversation we're having because my experience with the mental health system is a little bit, and a big part of the mental health system here is, I guess, diagnoses or assessing people and giving them labels. I would like to know your opinion on the importance of labels or lacrosse.

lack thereof? What are your thoughts on labels? For example, you've got depression, you've got PTSD, you've got bipolar, whatever it may be. Do labels have a place? Are they helpful?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (42:32)

So in therapy, we base our assumptions on formulation and we're formulating together what's happening. So for me, they are not that useful, but I noticed that for people who I talk to, feel like it feels like it's something useful that they finally explains what is happening in their body. It's almost like clarifying that

Rosie (42:51)

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (43:00)

Sometimes people say something like, I'm not crazy. I have got this. that is validating. And you know, when that experience of validation is extremely helpful, because at least then you know where to start and where to go. So let's say, for example, there is a person who thinks has got a complex PTSD.

Rosie (43:04)

Right, it's very validating.

Mm-hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (43:29)

And then I'm thinking, gosh, but Naomi, there is some sort of neuro diversity as well. Let's test it and see, because then we'll be applying different strategies, whether we're going to go first into treatment of complex PTSD, or actually we will be thinking, this is a neuro diverse brain, can be in a, partly can come from complex PTSD, but there is a little bit slightly different.

Rosie (43:35)

Mm-hmm.

All

interesting.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (43:59)

different take on that. It would be, let's understand how the brain function. What can we do to prop up the brain a little bit? There will be more of that in therapy. they are useful in this sense. And also it's always useful to have other people kind of around. So if someone comes and wants to be healed, one person is not enough when you say that you need a village to raise a child.

Rosie (44:15)

Okay.

true.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (44:29)

It's exactly the same. You need a village to treat the client. So I don't know how it is in Australia, but here it's a terrible feel of patients' confidentiality. No one talks to each other because everyone is scared, perhaps being sued. I don't know what people are scared of. Or they don't have enough training in how to write a clinical letter. I don't know.

Rosie (44:29)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (44:57)

But the easiest approach is to ask a client, what do you want me to write? Because sometimes it's very difficult for a person comes to a GP and say, there is something wrong with me, but I don't know what. But if I work with someone, for example, let's say I'm already with three sessions with someone and we already came to certain understanding, and then we want to test the assumptions that we made, whether for example, it's neurodiversity, let's write it down.

Rosie (45:15)

Mm-hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (45:26)

And then, you know, we can even address it to the client we see. We don't have to address it to a GP or to a psychiatrist. We can address it to the client and say, that's what we discussed. Let's make a summary. These are our assumptions and that's where we want to take it and then test it. And then let's bring it to a psychiatrist and see what the person thinks. They might have different tools. They definitely have different tools to approach that.

or a GP, my approach differently, running a general health tests. And nutritionist, I mean, we need to think about nutritionist as well. I mean, this is such a massive issue. Do not think about how food impacts our brain. So let's talk together about what's happening. The patient can navigate or the client can navigate their care.

Rosie (46:01)

Mmm.

This is true.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (46:22)

and then because they will be exploring what works for them.

Rosie (46:26)

Mm. Mm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (46:27)

So not communicating what's happening in therapy in a way, especially when one works with trauma, depression, anxiety. I don't know with other conditions, but with these conditions I work very well, of bipolar. It's very important that that person is in control and knows what's happening and whether that person can test those assumptions. And therapists has got the language, even if they feel they don't, because they are trained in different modalities.

Rosie (46:47)

Mmmmm

Kasia Makuch-Cole (46:56)

they still can simplify their understanding and write it down. And even as a draft with the client. And then the client can test it whether it's with other specialists. I find that very, very useful because then we have got common understanding. We can test assumptions, then exclude things that don't work and then narrow things to things that do work.

Rosie (47:18)

Yes.

So you taught this in school or university when you're training? Are you taught these things or have you had to learn this like trial by fire? How have you got to this point?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (47:37)

I was trained psychodynamically and psychoanalytically. There's absolutely none of that. In psychoanalysis and psychodynamic approach, one works with something that's called transference and countertransference, which I found extremely re-traumatizing for clients who experience trauma. And we work with trauma all the time. We do not work with clients who come and say,

Rosie (47:39)

Ha ha ha!

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (48:04)

I would like to experience psychoanalytic approach or psychodynamic approach. you know, I really am really curious how my brain works and what my unconscious processes are. I mean, I've never had a client come to me and says that. They always come and say, can you help me? You know, I feel this darkness and I cannot get out of it. psychoanalytic and psychodynamic approach work with

Rosie (48:07)

you

Yeah!

Right.

Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (48:33)

with transference, which means I am more withdrawn and I am creating a space that past experiences can be replaced somehow through the transference.

A pure one, the British one, is very restrained in terms of we work only with transference, which obviously you can guess what's happening, right? So when person comes with trauma and then replace the trauma in the counseling room, it traumatized their brain. I mean, they're using exactly the same pathways that they are reactivating the pathways that were traumatized.

Rosie (49:19)

Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (49:19)

in the past. it's not a mystery. It cannot work. It cannot work. But the training is good because it gives people and therapists an enormous resilience to meet whatever it is and to not jump into conclusions. And this way it's useful. But then I'm always saying

that there is a lot of understanding in psychodynamic psychotherapy, but the approach, the technique is not right. It's just outdated. What we say, if we know what we know and then we change the approach, for example, we will be balancing affect as balancing the objects on the inside. I mean, it's easy because I'm not creating a space when someone replace something.

Rosie (49:51)

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (50:12)

I'm attending and nurturing to what is there, especially if we're taking that into a body, into somatic experiences. And then I'm reactivating that part of the brain, the parasympathetic nervous system that is nurturing, loving, compassionate, gentle. Because that's where the healing is.

Rosie (50:12)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (50:42)

So we know a lot, but we need to change the technique in terms of that. That was my training. then in terms of learning this, well, because I've been quite unwell years ago, I had bacterium meningitis, which means a bacteria goes into the brain. So one.

Rosie (50:48)

Mmm. Mmm.

Yeah, that's serious, yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (51:06)

guess guess what we know I needed to take into consideration the body I can't just think oh I have bacteria meningitis I'm depressed now because of my childhood or because of my you know yes it is trauma it's a brain um uh a quiet brain injury type of thing and that you know how can I work with this to get better that's where my understanding of neurobiology

Rosie (51:21)

Mm-mm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (51:36)

of practicing opposite affect to activate the other part of my biology, the parasympathetic nervous system comes into place and then die it. It's massive at the moment. Yes.

Rosie (51:52)

diet. Okay.

All right. We're going into a different realm now. I want, because you mentioned to me.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (51:58)

And this is massive

because of how our brain works. So there is a lot out there now in terms of metabolic psychiatry with Dr. Palmer, other psychiatrists thinking about how we can heal and help the mitochondria in our brains. And we can.

Rosie (52:13)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

bright.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (52:27)

with adjusting our diet. So, you know, people might have therapy for years and the techniques didn't work. What if one will experience with diet?

because we can heal our brain. mean, there are questions like, for example, how excessive use of antibiotics impacts our mitochondrion. I mean, there are so many questions. let's, know, people did get better with using, for example, ketogenic diet or low-carbs diet for treatments of bipolar.

Rosie (53:07)

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (53:09)

or schizophrenia. And I don't say one needs to use medication or diet, but what if we try both to start with and then see where the client is. Because one needs to be ready as well to experience with diets. It's not an easy journey.

Rosie (53:22)

Mmm.

True, yeah. So is there one magical diet?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (53:32)

I don't think so, but we probably need more therapeutic nutritionists to work with us on psychiatrists. I don't know. But something really to think about how to adjust these things. Because look, if someone is permanently depressed, then one needs to ask themselves a question. Do you want to be

Rosie (53:42)

Yeah. I didn't know. Is that actually a thing at the moment?

Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (54:01)

tired on ketogenic diet or tired and depressed.

Rosie (54:06)

Right, right.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (54:07)

Because not having enough carbohydrates make us a little bit more tired. Well, it's no brainer, Whoever went through a dark depression, they know that it's much easier to be just tired. And then you'll have the joy. We do need to take into consideration our biology. We cannot just think, work with the narrative in our mind. Look where we are.

Rosie (54:22)

Right, right, yeah.

Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (54:37)

not mine, it's the whole body we do and when we are listening to our body we can actually pick up the clues.

Rosie (54:46)

clues, yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (54:48)

Like what is there? What's happening? Because sometimes there is a lot in our body that communicates if there is an organ dysfunction and then, you know, this can cause depression. So we can pick up on that. It's really worth living in our body. I know that we very often dissociate from our body because it's the initial feel of coming back into our body. It's quite like, it's better to distract ourselves.

But when we make a habit of living in our body and experience the world through our body, we are much in a much safer place. Because we are picking up the clues about the world, about how our body function. Maybe it's not an easier way of living because we have all those sensations to navigate. But once you have the map, you...

Rosie (55:36)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (55:47)

you can feel the body easier. I promise it's just getting easier and easier when one dissociates less and feels the body more and long term when we're going into aging I would say it's a much better approach to live in our body because there are so many things that can go wrong.

Rosie (56:08)

Well, But dissociating is, I think it's a very common coping mechanism. Have I lost you? Oh, no, you're there. Sorry, the picture froze. It's a very common coping mechanism, but in the long-term, it's really not very helpful, is it?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (56:17)

Mm.

Not in a long term. It is for a reason. No? Yeah, exactly. If we go through trauma, there is a reason for that and it makes us resilient. It helps us survive. Well, in this world, we are overstimulated with everything. So putting on Netflix and dissociating for a while from our body or even if you have just a cold or COVID, sometimes it's...

Rosie (56:33)

Yeah, short term it's great.

Mm.

Right.

Yup.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (57:00)

It's okay, right? We don't have to criticize ourselves for not feeling ourselves. But then we just need to be conscious of that. you know, I'm not feeling myself today, but I make sure that I'll just pick up the pace tomorrow when I feel more rested and I'll come to my body. I just couldn't feel myself today because I was too tired and those sensations were too overwhelming or perhaps triggering.

Rosie (57:01)

Mmm, mmm.

Right.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (57:27)

But I'll pick

Rosie (57:27)

Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (57:28)

up the pace tomorrow, I will be less tired and then I'll check with me. And the practice of checking, you know, every day in the morning, how am I really today? And then nurturing whatever comes. It's a very powerful practice without criticism, without any type of judgment.

Rosie (57:40)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (57:57)

And you know what I found useful the longer I live? These practices are very useful, but then to have values in life somehow examined. So because we are pulled in so many directions and we can be pulled by different affects in many different directions, let's say

Rosie (58:07)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (58:24)

I live in London, practice in a very... So where I live, it's quite normal, but part of my practice is in quite a luxurious location. you know, being in that narcissistic space, there is an effect of narcissism. Everyone wants to be the best or hiding behind a certain way of being when inadequacy or difficulties...

Rosie (58:36)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (58:54)

one doesn't want to show that or if they show they want to show it, it's shown in a way that doesn't look bad. So anyway, we live in a very narcissistic kind of it's a kind of affect of narcissism about us in the clouds. What we see how people talk to us, there is that feel of

Rosie (59:05)

Right.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (59:19)

Maybe perhaps it's part of capitalism that people want to sell things and make us feel inadequate so then we can buy. But there is something else. We live in a culture that is very individualized. So each of us wants to be individual, great. But there is a difference between self-realization...

and the narcissistic kind of feel that kind of blows up our ego.

Rosie (59:52)

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (59:54)

Self-realization is working with our body and being resilient and having the courage to go where our true self leads us. It might be in places when we don't earn money, when we don't live in beautiful places, it might be somewhere where we serve other people.

Rosie (1:00:15)

Right?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:00:24)

It might be when we are going against the current and speaking the truth, the way how our heart perceives it, our inner self. So it's that's self-realization, at least in my understanding. But narcissistic blow up is like, I, you know, I'm I'm still not in the place I wanted to be. That's sort of I'm not individualized enough.

Rosie (1:00:48)

Mm-hmm, okay.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:00:52)

And with these, because we will be always pulled with the narcissistic affect, because that's how it is in this world at the moment. So I always say, write down, we need to all write down our values and just keep to them. If in our life there is a value of service and living with joy and love, then...

Rosie (1:01:01)

True, yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:01:19)

let's reconnect with that affect every day in the morning and let's discard other affects. We can nurture them and say, I have got pulled into this direction, pulled into that direction, or someone really upset me. I can nurture these sensations in my body, but I still keep a line with my values. And this way life is very, very, very simple. We are more resilient.

Rosie (1:01:41)

Yes.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:01:48)

You know, if if I have a value of living a simple life and I'm not going to overspend and buy millions of things and that's my value of sharing my resources, whatever it is, I'm just keeping to those values and I don't. It's not about fighting someone because then I'm bringing the effect of being angry that the world is not the way that I want it to be. It's slightly narcissistic. I want.

Rosie (1:02:16)

Mm-hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:02:18)

It's I want to be acceptance of that's the world as it is. I don't mean I accept certain values in the world, but I can live next to them because I know my smallness and I know that I'm not going to change them. But by living differently, my values. I, I, I, I just realize I self realize I self actualize.

And I'm guessing he probably wants to tell a little bit more about that because you chose a way of living, you're living your heart, you're exploring, I'm guessing you're searching for the truth, you're minimalizing your life to the core of what's very important and I'm guessing you're deciding what's the values that are important.

Rosie (1:02:52)

No.

Mmm.

Totally, yeah, absolutely. And I'm a huge advocate for getting clear on your values because, like you said, it makes life so much simpler. It's just, it's very clear. If you're being pulled in different directions, but you come back to, well, family's important to me or whatever your value is, then it becomes clear. Well, I'm gonna go in this direction.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:03:16)

Bye.

Yes. And with each value, will come love and suffering. It's normal. We need to end. But then we're undertaking that. We're not stepping away because this is my value. And then I'm examining how I'm going to approach that value. So if the value is service or living in love or living in that object, right? When we if let's say when you said that

Rosie (1:03:45)

Right, right.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:04:09)

breathing with the light blue that you discovered or you live in that space all the time. When you're pulled in a different direction, you can always have a quiet moment and bring yourself to that space and to the value of freedom and self-compassion. And that is a value that you live your life from.

Rosie (1:04:12)

Mm-mm.

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:04:37)

And that value will be a part of your son in your inner system, in the the solar system. It's it's a part of who you it feels like it's it's it's part of yours, of your of your true self.

Rosie (1:04:53)

Right, yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:04:55)

And even if you are noticing yourself that you have a bad day because of so many reasons, external, biological, it's normal. And you are noticing that it's in your body and then slowly reactivating the place in your body that you live from.

Rosie (1:05:00)

Uh-huh.

Mmm.

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:05:25)

And if that means that you need to hold these two at the same time, let it be. But you're still investing into your brain because there is a neuroplasticity in our brain, even when we are getting older, that we're creating the pathways in our brain or allowing them to be created where the, when the parasympathetic nervous system activates itself quicker.

Rosie (1:05:55)

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:05:56)

that

we're just long-term well healthier.

Rosie (1:06:00)

Yeah, it's a, you really got to, it's a lot of self awareness or what was the term you were using? Self-realization, is that what you were calling it?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:06:08)

I've been practicing for a while. But because I don't I never like to apply a strategy and then trusting. Just you know, when you're applying something and then you think, but it's not working in the counseling room. And that's what that's what always it's it's really depends on what sort of values we were brought up in.

Rosie (1:06:11)

Yeah!

yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:06:39)

No one needs to examine it, but I didn't know when I went into training in psychoanalysis that my values maybe perhaps are not as compatible with that school because that school keeps the client or patient slightly separate as an object of observation. When my values are

Rosie (1:06:54)

Hmm?

Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:07:05)

I was raised in a value when I mean human human being is God, right? It's it's there is it's it's a beauty in in another human. You serve another human. You do everything possible in your power to and to to to to to make the life better. I mean, I was raised Christian, so it's not like in a.

not in a fundamentalist way. It's just in the kind of normal way that another human being is sacred.

Rosie (1:07:38)

Hmm.

Right. And I think, you

know, I'm not religious, but to me as an onlooker, a core part of Christianity is love.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:07:54)

Yeah. And you know, you're sacred. It doesn't mean that I it's people very often mislead kindness with politeness or if they think that someone someone is is not kind because someone speaks the truth. It's I'm treating anyone who is in contact with me with. As I would like to be treated.

Rosie (1:08:03)

yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:08:21)

No matter whether the person is in a better social standing than me or in a lower social standing, whether it has got different color of the skin or sexuality, for me that person is sacred. But that's a value that one needs to realize that it's a value. Otherwise, if people don't know that, then in many organizational structure one gets into trouble.

Rosie (1:08:29)

Hmm.

Right?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:08:49)

because that might not be, it's very important to understand values of organizations we work with, even when it's, especially the unconscious values of organization. So there might be a conscious value of organization, we serve everyone, but the unconscious value is, you know, I'm treating you because you are a source of income and if I...

Rosie (1:09:09)

Yeah, yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:09:17)

If I can, and I don't say everyone needs to earn money, but if people over diagnose you or if an organization says that you need to have more treatment, whether it's operations, psychological treatment, whatever it is, because they see you as a long term income.

Rosie (1:09:43)

Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:09:43)

That's

unconsciously the value is not human is sacred. The value is, know, our profit is the most important value here.

Rosie (1:09:59)

Hmm. There's just so much to unpack with values out there.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:10:00)

And in the world we live in?

Yes, it is. And especially when we work for someone, you know, being aware of those values or even we're training organizations, people say, oh, I'm training as a therapist in that modality. Why doesn't work for me? People don't understand that even psychotherapeutic modalities or any modalities in the world.

any medical model, anything. It's a business model. It's a business model that people need to... Because if people give you a labor that you are that, then it means you are the face of that business model. So when I'm saying about psychoanalytic or psychodynamic psychotherapy, of course I'm not carrying the labor anymore because I don't inherit...

Rosie (1:10:34)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:10:56)

the business model, don't work in that modality anymore. Although I use the whole training, I don't use the technique. So I can't say I work in that business model because I do not share the value. My value is a human being is sacred and I'll do absolutely everything for that human being to get better.

Rosie (1:11:01)

Mmm, mmm.

Mmm. Mmm.

Yeah. And just talking to you, can...

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:11:27)

But that's complexity of our

world, isn't it?

Rosie (1:11:31)

Yeah, and just talking to you, can feel it. I can see it that you are, you know, you're living in your values. It seems like anyway, right? Doing the best you can, Like, and it's a journey, I think, and a lot of people, I think they'll be listening to this and perhaps they're in a place where they're not sort of living or working in alignment with their values.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:11:40)

the world is sometimes this way.

Rosie (1:11:58)

they're feeling this conflict would you have any advice to them?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:12:03)

Do not be afraid of the conflict.

Rosie (1:12:06)

yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:12:08)

Because it's a very, very important part of our life to choose our values, to slow down, to acknowledge them conflict, to nourish it, even with the techniques that we practice, what the conflict is telling us. Because when we choose certain values, there is always a gain and loss.

So even with that simple example that if people work for a value, a human being is sacred, but not for gaining as much financial profit from it. That means you have a loss, right? You might struggle with a mortgage. There are losses. At the same time, that feel...

Rosie (1:12:55)

Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:12:59)

might tell you in your body that you need to sell the skills that you have in a way that you feel like you are self respect yourself. It's not only serving others, you are applying the same values to yourself.

Rosie (1:13:15)

Hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:13:19)

So it's that working with that conflict, sitting with it, and yes, there will be a tension. There will be a loss. There will be a gain. And there might be a situation when you'll be living your life differently than someone else. And that might be a tension between friends and family, right? Yes. And we need to also say,

Rosie (1:13:31)

Yeah.

Yeah, it's highly likely to happen, isn't it?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:13:46)

that there are people in this world that they might have certain values, but they don't have the freedom to live their values. And to be in that space as well and to apply the compassion because it's a privilege to live with our values in this world. It's a privilege to choose them.

Rosie (1:14:02)

True, true.

Hmm... Hmm...

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:14:11)

So if someone doesn't have that space to work in the body with that, the sensation of loss, that there is not enough space at this moment to choose the values that they wish to choose.

Rosie (1:14:29)

Yeah, thank you for bringing that up because I talk about values a lot on the podcast and it's very easy to be very utopic about it. And you know, you pick your values and live in your values and da da da, it's all wonderful. But you know, what you've spoken to is it's a reality for many people in the world right now.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:14:54)

for many women.

Rosie (1:14:56)

yeah, true that. Yep. Yep.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:15:00)

for many people in minority.

Rosie (1:15:03)

Yes.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:15:04)

that they need to somehow adjust themselves to keep to be safe.

Rosie (1:15:10)

Safe, yes.

Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:15:14)

So in therapy,

we can't ignore the reality of the external. I would say that the external makes us more ill than the internal. So the social system will live in the affect that is in the air makes us more unwell than what's in the body. Of course, when we're aging, it's a little bit different, but in reality, the social system we live in makes us very unwell.

Rosie (1:15:31)

Hmm

Yeah.

And it's largely

out of our control, isn't it? Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:15:46)

Yes, that's why

applying nurturing and compassion towards what's happening in our body without the criticism and judgment is very important because sometimes we can have a very false narrative about what's in our body. We can blame ourselves for something that is, the narrative is completely wrong.

Rosie (1:16:05)

Mm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:16:12)

For example, I'm guilty of this instead of actually seeing the whole situation, the complexity of it, and that I did the best I could in that complex situation. So it's a very different narrative. It may feel the same in a sense, it might come as guilt, but a skillful therapist will always, if someone says I feel guilt, I always dive into it and I'll try to check whether...

the language really brings words in the body. So I never say let's call the emotions first. I would say let's talk about the sensations in the body first. Because we, you know, how do we know whether people have got a good enough emotional? It's here in primary school, we call it emotional literacy, which means that we can call, we can name the emotions correctly.

Rosie (1:16:53)

Mmm, mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:17:11)

to how the body.

Rosie (1:17:12)

think a lot of

us are quite terrible at that actually.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:17:15)

Yes, and if we are very quick in naming all of us, we can really misjudge that, especially with sensations around shame, heaviness. These sensations really need to be looked into because there might be something else. Or sometimes people feel guilt just because they feel.

Rosie (1:17:36)

Hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:17:43)

You know, like they were ashamed by feeling emotions or they just don't, they don't have, they have got a very small window of allowing emotions, what's allowed. You know, let's imagine that there are a window and there are certain emotions are in the window and what's outside of the window, it's not allowed. So there can be so many different affect emotions unknown, but it would come as guilt.

Rosie (1:17:54)

Right. Yeah.

Hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:18:11)

because it's outside of what's allowed to feel.

Rosie (1:18:11)

Yes.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:18:16)

So it's not always, and guilt is not always a guilt.

Rosie (1:18:17)

Mmm.

Right! my gosh! This is a rabbit hole! Yeah...

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:18:23)

Because it might be might be terror, right? Or it might be

just unknown or not being in control and it comes skilled because it's outside of the window of tolerance. It's really worth working with emotions and affecting therapy and naming them and being very creative and how to approach them.

Rosie (1:18:33)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. my goodness. Right, okay. Right.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:18:44)

even if they come as thoughts, if they will become as narrative, because the narrative

comes from somewhere.

Rosie (1:18:53)

Right. would you say thoughts are good or bad?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:18:59)

Neither. Neither. Because they just constantly there, aren't they? They just constantly there. Just going on and on and on. I just learn not to pay attention to them. But even if I... Nah.

Rosie (1:19:00)

Yeah

They're just there.

Yeah, because our thoughts aren't always true, are they?

you

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:19:20)

I learn not to pay attention to them. And if I catch myself that I'm thinking about something, then I bring myself to the core affect, the one that I like to practice. if I, you know, there are some, sometimes there is time when we are focused on a task and this is working very well, the brain. But if we don't have anything to do.

then I like to think about an ocean or walking in the forest or doing something nice because then it brings the affect of joy. And joy is that's what I always aim in therapy. I don't aim for happiness because that's not possible. But the constant feel of joy, the awareness that we can be joyful, that life is joyful, that life is pulsating in everyone. It's enough to walk to look at our dogs.

Rosie (1:19:52)

Yeah, yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:20:18)

I mean, God is such a joyful creatures. They don't think about, you know, it's just allowing the life that lives us because we don't have control over it. It's the narcissistic struggle, right? That we feel that we're so omnipotent that we have everything under control. When actually we are just dancing with whatever comes and we're responding to our values in that dance.

Rosie (1:20:21)

Yeah.

true that,

Yeah

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:20:48)

And that dance, we allow ourselves to be creative and playful, can be really, really joyful. Because we can breathe, aim for that in life. If just to create a smooth dance with joy, having the values, having the values guarding that.

Rosie (1:20:56)

Yeah, I love that analogy of dancing. Yeah.

A smooth dance with joy.

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:21:16)

because there will

be always other values trying to break it.

Rosie (1:21:21)

yeah, the values guarding your joy, right. Now I wanna go back to something you said. You said that the aim of therapy, your goal is never for happiness. And then you mentioned joy. So I think many people use those words interchangeably. What is the difference between happiness and joy? Yeah.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:21:39)

They do it, don't they?

people, probably all of us at some point in our life to aim for some sort of happiness and then whatever that image is, whatever people's emotional investment is in that image of happy image. Many people in our world is being constantly safe, having huge amount of savings.

Rosie (1:21:51)

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:22:07)

having a perfect relationship, having children that are never ill. That never happens. But if we find in our world the resilience to meet whatever comes with trust, whatever those values are, if we... In therapy, I always talk about the life that lives us.

Rosie (1:22:14)

Haha

Mm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:22:36)

Trust that the life is benign, compassionate, gentle, creative, and that has got our goodness in its core. That it's enough to watch the pets. I love nature. Walking through the forest, that there is something beautiful about the planet that feeds us, that brings us oxygen.

Rosie (1:22:50)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:23:05)

that there

is a lot of care. And even though the human distractiveness, it will be perfect. There is a lot, a lot of care. I know that there are, you know, some

kind of climate, traumatic, even related to climate and all of that we can think why that is. But if we simplify our life and say to ourselves, there is a lot of care in our planet at the core of life itself. And we can learn to trust it and test it and observe it and see that there is a lot of love.

and compassion around us and nurturing. And it really, I like to imagine those affect that they are in us, but they also in others. And there is some sort of like energy in groups or that people are coming together because of certain values or energy or affect. So if this is something that we shared, because we are not just living on our planet individually.

Rosie (1:24:09)

Mm-mm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:24:18)

So if there is something that is shared, can really be looked after by it. So if you practice compassion in life or service, trust that this is bigger than you. Trust that this is going to move you in the right direction, because this is a value, not just in your head. This is a value in your heart. And you're reconnecting with that value towards yourself and others every day.

Then of course it starts to... The effort grows and grows and brings more and more people around you.

Rosie (1:24:55)

Yes.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:24:57)

And it's in the planet as well in spaces that you occupy. It's like an aquarium that in the aquarium, not the individual fish counts, but the water. It's the same with families. I like the aquarium kind of because we look after we don't look only about the individuals. We look after the atmosphere, the water in the aquarium or in the ocean and the water that moves us. So we are

we are not alone and we can have that trust formed and this trust is formed by observation how we lived our life through those values how they carried us so then when we tested over a few years we see yes this is working i lived those values for a couple of years and they are working for me they don't save me from

Rosie (1:25:49)

Hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:25:54)

suffering in the world, it's not possible at all. They carry me through them. Or if I suffer, there is always someone or something that pulls me out. I still remember at some point when I was in the hospital, barely conscious, and there was a nurse coming out six hours in the hospital.

just outside of neurology department because no one wanted to meet me and I was very unwell. And there was a nurse coming in, what on earth is happening here? This girl needs to be seen immediately. And she rearranged, she arranged a transfer to another hospital for me and an ambulance. Here it is. I, you know, I wish I wouldn't have been unwell.

Rosie (1:26:27)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:26:50)

But that's not something that is visible in this world. But what is that I trust that there will be someone that can carry me for a while through their jobs or through whatever is happening. And if there is no affect that can carry me and there is a time that I need to pass on pass when I'll be dying, I trust that those values will be carrying me as well. If that makes sense.

Rosie (1:27:19)

Hmm...

It does.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:27:20)

that they so

strong, the affect is so strong that by living in them, they will be carrying me anyway.

Rosie (1:27:29)

Yeah. I think what you're speaking to ties in really well with a question I ask every guest.

So I want to know, Kasha, what does freedom mean to you? I feel like we've been touching on it throughout the whole episode, but let's break it down. What is freedom to you?

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:27:55)

This is something that it's one of my core values.

And it's a gain and loss. Gain because I feel like freedom is the search for truth, living differently, being very independent.

Rosie (1:28:06)

Hmm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:28:25)

but I also feel that there is a loss in it because

of searching for own paths and taking risk.

And I feel like despite the fact that we live in a society that loves freedom, I feel like many people actually give the freedom away very easily.

Rosie (1:28:55)

Yes.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:28:58)

and unconsciously they don't even realize that. Whether there are addictions or even just addiction from not suffering. Not wanting to look things into the eyes of truth. Just numbing ourselves with whatever comes. And if you really want to look into the eye of the beast, one needs to be able to feel those sensations in the body. That's why I feel like there is a bit of loss with it as well.

Rosie (1:29:24)

Mm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:29:28)

that one needs to be prepared to undertake risk, to not align with values of places or organizations, and sometimes to be even kicked out of places. Not resigning because it's not, I don't think, true freedom. It's an easy value to live with.

Rosie (1:29:38)

Mm-hmm.

Ha!

Right.

Mm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:29:57)

because there is something about not, it's not about being anarchistic and rejecting everything, but it's about searching for the truth. And if something doesn't align with my values, like for example, when I mentioned that a human being is sacred, then that limits.

my opportunities.

Rosie (1:30:28)

Right, yeah. There's always a price to pay, isn't there? There's the gain, as you mentioned, and the loss. And it's not always comfortable, is that the word, to embrace the value of freedom? Because freedom's very important to me as well.

But in my opinion, my life's better for it.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:30:51)

You wouldn't choose any other way and I would any other way. I just wouldn't be able to live without my freedom. I remember that was probably like 30 years ago or even more. I was still a very young teenager and I was praying for seeing the truth. I was praying that I can see the truth. I still remember that.

Rosie (1:31:04)

Yeah.

Wow. Wow.

Not

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:31:20)

I really want to see the truth.

Rosie (1:31:21)

many teenagers would be praying for that, let alone adults.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:31:25)

I want to see the truth how it is. Maybe because I, so until I was nine, there was a communistic regime in the country I grew up in. And maybe that was something that it felt like, because like in the undermining regimes, there is a narrative.

Rosie (1:31:38)

Mm.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:31:49)

that people need to submit themselves to. But even if there is no regime, there is a narrative in the culture. And it's just being able to pass through the narrative. I was always very interested in that.

Rosie (1:31:50)

Yes, yes.

Kasha, this has been like amazing, amazing, such a stimulating conversation. I've learnt a lot. And I think I'm going to have trouble finding a therapist I like now that you've set such a high standard. I'm like, okay, they exist. I need to find one now. But also... All right.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:32:08)

Hmm.

All

But please contact me, I know many. You know, when

you work in a certain way, people then, I hope that people connect and they connect and carry themselves through difficulties. Because as you said, if we fight for certain values, we need alliance.

Rosie (1:32:48)

Mmm.

Very true. Yep. Yep.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:32:55)

But it was,

it's amazing to meet you. I love your search for freedom and I love your podcast. I love the way you live and it's an honor to be here.

Rosie (1:33:02)

Thank you.

Thank you. I feel the same and to hear that freedom is one of your core values, I just went, no wonder I was drawn to you. No wonder. But yeah, thank you so much for your time. You've been so generous and just, it's just been amazing. And I'm mindful that your child's really unwell right now. So it means a lot that you've put some time aside to kind of just pour your heart out and so, so grateful.

Kasia Makuch-Cole (1:33:21)

You

Thank you.

Rosie (1:33:43)

All right, we'll talk soon.