71: Unmasking authenticity: neurodiversity, trauma and personal growth with Nikki La Croce

[00:00:44] Rosie: Joining us today is the amazing Likki. Likki. Oh my God. I might keep that in there. Wow. You

[00:00:50] Nikki: know what? I don't think you're the first one to do that.

[00:00:52] I feel like this happened with one of my friends. This happened with one of my friends who was interviewing me. And she did sort of the same thing. I'm It's like, you gotta just roll with it.

[00:01:00] Rosie: Shit, man.

[00:01:01] Anyway, joining us today is the amazing Nikki, not Likki, La Crochet. Nikki's got an incredible story. We're going to dive into it today. And Nikki, it's what you've referred to in the past as your personal Armageddon. So it's pretty heavy stuff. And I just want to give a quick content warning to people.

[00:01:20] We're going to be discussing some difficult stuff. So things like death, abusive relationships, and, topics surrounding trauma, so skip it if you need to, or just come back when you're in a safe space. And with that aside, Nikki, thank you so much. I'm excited to have you here.

[00:01:36] Nikki: Yeah, Rosie, thank you so much.

[00:01:37] And I appreciate the disclaimer too, because I totally get it when you're not in the right headspace to listen to heavy stuff. It can feel overwhelming and you never want to push through that. So definitely I share that sentiment for anybody who might want to listen for the nature of the content to be able to hear the story.

[00:01:54] But if now's not the time come back when it is.

[00:01:57] Rosie: Yeah. Right. Look after yourself.

[00:01:59] I like to start my episodes diving into my guest's kind of story, let's go back to when you were a kid.

[00:02:06] What was life like? What was little Nikki like? Who were you?

[00:02:11] Nikki: Oh that's a great question. Cause I've actually been contemplating that quite a bit lately really going back and thinking about who I was when I was younger, because my dad was here visiting for a few days. And growing up, I was definitely, I think the black sheep of my family to some degree.

[00:02:27] I Not in a bad way, just that I challenged things more than most people in my family. I definitely come from a family of sort of pioneers and innovators in that regard. Fun fact, my grandfather on my dad's side invented the pop top to the peanut can. So like, that's like a real Very random things, but it's like very intelligent, innovative human beings.

[00:02:48] My mom was growing up, she was born in 1949 and she really set the stage for showing us what it looked like to really be an empowered woman. And I actually said to my wife the other day, I wish I, while she was still here, I could have acknowledged how important that was to me. I think I did to some degree, but especially now with the state of the world and everything happening with women's rights, that feels like We shouldn't be in this position anymore, like things that she fought for before I was even around and being able to be witness to a really strong woman who left a career to be a stay at home mom and taught us the values of hard work as did my dad.

[00:03:24] I feel like I grew up in a really loving household. I grew up in. A home with parents who were very attentive and available for literally every single activity they had to show for us around to through my youth. And at the same time, they are baby boomers and they had their own limited. Abilities their own limited emotional awareness and intelligence at the time for sure.

[00:03:47] And I think there's a lot that I look back on now and I grapple with because. You can simultaneously recognize and acknowledge how much love and support there was and also still be like, not all of my needs were met because they Couldn't have understood how, and I also couldn't communicate it because I didn't know.

[00:04:06] So I think generally speaking, it was a really ideal upbringing for the most part, and when it really became challenging for me was outside of my family life with friendships and things like that, because I always had groups of friends but when I was in seventh grade. I lost a group of friends who thought I was a lesbian at the time, which, I am, but I wasn't out and in 1997, 98, it wasn't like people weren't coming out young the way that they are now.

[00:04:40] So I definitely felt a lot of social isolation and ostracized for that without even coming out yet at that point. I continued to play it straight for a while. I think, after a lot of therapy for many reasons that sort of resurfaces as one of the things that can be challenging for me looking back at my childhood because it was between that and not being diagnosed early on in life with ADHD.

[00:05:06] Which I have been diagnosed with since is I really wasn't able to be the full expression of myself and you don't really recognize how much that dictates the way you show up in the world because you're doing it from a place of social survival. And so as I I just turned 39 last week and I'm looking back at those years in my life going.

[00:05:28] Wow, like I was really hurting and I didn't understand the depth of that hurt because It felt like it was just what I needed to do So it's definitely been a journey and very much top of the mind in the last couple of days in terms of having conversations about this exact topic and sort of Looking back and going Who am I right now compared to who I was then?

[00:05:51] And look at how much has changed for the better because I've opened up to being my full authentic self.

[00:06:00] Rosie: I want to go back to this idea of labels, right? Wow. There's two you've mentioned, you're a lesbian and you have ADHD. And there's a lot of talk about well, it's just a label I don't need a fucking label. And sometimes I feel like that fuck off, don't label me. However, I think they have a place and I'm really curious, did these labels help you?

[00:06:26] Did they help you embrace who you are? What was the journey there?

[00:06:30] Nikki: Wow. Okay. That's a really good question. And I would say we were watching a movie that wasn't very good if I'm well, in my opinion, at least I think it was called mild ass and they marketed it as an Aubrey Plaza movie, which let's be honest, she had 12 minutes of content and there was very disappointing.

[00:06:46] For anyone who's thinking about watching it, just FYI. But I say this because there was this one line in the movie where the one character was talking about their sexuality and grappling with it and the other character said, remember what you told me, that, you only, something along the lines of use labels when it feels right to you or feels important to you and I think that's A really good way of considering it.

[00:07:11] I didn't grow up thinking I needed the labels, but. I think what it did was, so because they're they're different, right? In, in their own way. I'll speak first to the neurodiversity piece of it, because I think getting a diagnosis later in life was less about the label and more about me having a retrospective on a lot of things in my life and my personality and being like, Oh, that makes sense now.

[00:07:39] Oh, okay. That's good. I got it. Okay. So it really, it helped me feel less shame around things that I thought were weird or different, which maybe they are. And some of them are just inherently who I am as a person, but there are these little things that I was shamed about in my life by people in my life, not necessarily intentionally, I internalized a lot of the criticism and feedback because my brain works differently.

[00:08:04] And so I think having that diagnosis more than thinking of it as a label was helpful for me. Just in terms of being like, okay well, how can I navigate my life differently given that I know this information? So that label was like a tool for me to use. Whereas being a lesbian and being queer it's tough because, I think at one time I, in my adult life, in the last, let's say 10 years, I had the thought of, okay I'm much more masculine, like in my clothing style and haircut and things like that.

[00:08:39] But um, my friends are always like, you have such a feminine energy. So it's it's, there's a very big contrast in what people probably expect from you when they see you. And I think for me, it was like, I grew up with this expectation of you have to look a certain way. You have to be. A certain way to attract people to you and at the time attract men to you, even though I had crushes on girls.

[00:09:01] And so I. I was, I think I was out in my own, in, in my awareness of my lesbianism before I actually came out, if that makes sense. It was like, I was conscious of my masking. But I was trying to force that down. So I didn't have to confront the social. repercussions of that in a time not that we're in a great place right now globally, but I think there is a lot more support despite there also being a lot of people who are still very hateful.

[00:09:27] It feels like there is a little bit more freedom to share that. And so at the time I may have identified as bisexual just because I was sort of like, there weren't a lot of lesbians around. So I was just like playing the odds.

[00:09:41] I was like, you're available. Let's make out. I don't know. That's my standards weren't very good. But then when I look at it now, I think, for me, It's always been about my sense of connection to people. And I can, I connect with, I think anybody of any gender or sexuality. But when I feel the most safe and seen is when I think about my, when it comes to dating and romantic relationships is with a woman.

[00:10:09] And so I do feel like the labels a little irrelevant to me. I don't need to be like, I'm a lesbian loud and proud. It's just it's a statement of fact. Rather than something like I really need for my core identity.

[00:10:23] But I do think when it comes to building community, there's something to be said for expressing a label so other people know that it's.

[00:10:33] It's safe to fully express who they are around you too because I think when other people are in a situation, perhaps if they're queer and they don't know that you are, when you do tell them that you are, it can be like, oh, okay, then I can fully express that part of you, right? And so it's it has a purpose, but I'm really not somebody who needs to be living in the labels.

[00:10:59] Rosie: Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you on that. And when you mentioned, sometimes the labels are for other people, helps them feel safe and opens the door like, Hey, this is safe space or I'm like you.

[00:11:11] Nikki: Yeah. I found with ADHD, that's actually something that's been really powerful because one of my closest friends from college who was actually the first person I came out to in college um, is, so it was almost a full circle moment now that I think about it, she was saying she's been seeing a lot of content and thinking about everything she's experiencing and symptoms and things like that and saying, I know you got a late in life ADHD diagnosis.

[00:11:36] I think I might like, what's that experience been like for you? And so it is, I think, really important to be open about what our stories are because labels aside, I just think knowing who you are and being able to be free with that gives people the opportunity to be vulnerable and free with their own experiences as well.

[00:11:55] Rosie: And what has your experience been like? I'm going to call it coming out with ADHD because I think it is. There's still a lot of stigma around it. Do you share it with everybody? What's that been like?

[00:12:09] Nikki: Yeah, that's a really good question, Rosie. I would say, now I do because I think, especially because I have a tendency to unintentionally interrupt people.

[00:12:22] Because. My, my response trigger in my brain and my mouth are just like, they're already there. And it doesn't matter that person's still talking. Yeah. Yep. I

[00:12:33] Rosie: get

[00:12:33] Nikki: it. And to the point where sometimes I'll be like, the words are coming out and I'm immediately apologizing because it's like, it's too, I'm sorry.

[00:12:41] It's already happened. Finish what you're saying, but that wasn't going to stop. So we just have to let it be there now. So I think it gave me the opportunity to be. more self aware,

[00:12:53] to be honest, made me very conscious of what are my tendencies when I feel inclined to interject. How do I hold on to a thought without interrupting someone, but also not only focusing on my thoughts so I'm not listening to anything that they're saying.

[00:13:08] Shit. Yeah. Yeah. God forbid there be like an, a loud noise happening in the background while I'm trying to focus on what somebody's saying and I'm like, it's fine. Just, I had this happen the other day when I was on another show as a guest and my dogs are just barking aggressively. And I'm like, are you kidding me right now?

[00:13:22] And she can't hear anything, but I'm like, I can do this. I can focus on what she is saying right now. Keep going. So I think there is this element of ownership that I was able to take over my own life and the way I interact with people. So it actually, especially in a work scenario where I was still in corporate business at the time I was working at Amazon and AWS.

[00:13:43] And when that happened, I felt like I could go into meetings and be like, Hey, this is how I am as a person. So if you're feeling some type of way about it, please just call me out on it because

[00:13:54] Rosie: it might

[00:13:54] Nikki: not be intentional that I'm doing that. Or this might continue to happen. I might be a couple of minutes late or whatever this is.

[00:14:01] Because I'm trying. my best. And to most neurotypical people, you're like, why can't you just be on time? Why are you always two and a half minutes late? And you're like, I wish I could tell you because I left with the intention of being here five minutes

[00:14:12] Rosie: early. Yeah. I think this is a really important conversations to have because so many women are getting diagnosed later in life.

[00:14:24] Even the DSM criteria, whatever it's called, they were developed off basically studies on little white boys. And ADHD often presents differently in girls and women. And so many of us have fallen through the cracks. I don't have an ADHD diagnosis, what were you going to say?

[00:14:43] Nikki: Oh no, finish your thought there.

[00:14:43] I like doing the thing that I do. Here we go! This is a real time example.

[00:14:48] Rosie: Oh shit, I do the same. So I don't have an ADHD diagnosis, but I'm beginning to suspect I do have ADHD. I'm already officially in inverted commas neurodivergent. Like I got a bipolar 2 diagnosis quite some time ago. And, I don't know what it was like for you with ADHD, but there's no education around it.

[00:15:08] It's just yep, here you go, slap, there's a label off, you go and figure it out. And. There's a lot I'm discovering in common between bipolar and ADHD in terms of symptoms. So I don't fucking know what's what if I have both or not. But the more self aware I've become, I'm like, Oh, I'm not broken. This is just how I'm wired.

[00:15:29] So it's been really validating.

[00:15:32] Nikki: Yeah. Validating is the right word for it. And I appreciate you sharing that. And I think that the piece about it manifesting differently for. Boys versus girls, especially at younger ages, is really important to note because I've had this conversation with a lot of people health practitioners included,

[00:15:49] Rosie: where

[00:15:50] Nikki: it for women in particular, it manifests as internalized anxiety.

[00:15:54] I didn't understand that I had anxiety until many years into my adulthood. And now, to be fair, it was exacerbated by being in a relationship with a narcissist, but the crazy thing about that relationship is that She was a behavioral specialist for children with autism, so she knew diagnostic criteria, right?

[00:16:15] so she had a wealth of knowledge about something that was helpful for me for all the things that I could sit here and say went sideways and were quite abusive in that relationship. Being told that I should consider asking if I can be tested or do the assessment and potentially get diagnosed with ADHD was a value add for me, for sure, because I probably would have denied it.

[00:16:41] On my own and not, I think I didn't really buy into it. I, I think, like I said, I'm 39. I feel like growing up, ADHD was like hyper little boys and yeah, I've got a lot of energy and I can talk forever, but I do think that learning that the way that my brain works overall, just like the way that I read things, the way that I'm better at listening to somebody talk while I'm doodling on a notebook or something, right? Like things that I basically architected to get through school and still be an honor student. I was somehow Making it work, right? And a lot of people, especially women who are diagnosed later in life are high achieving women who have just figured out ways to hack their life to make it work for them.

[00:17:28] But with that comes a lot of additional internal pressure. And so I think having the diagnosis sheds light on this ability to release some of that shame about the things that were like, why am I not always this good or perfect or getting it right every single time?

[00:17:45] Rosie: You know what started my journey on understanding ADHD is I had a, I have a friend, she was diagnosed later in life.

[00:17:54] And so me wanting to be a supportive friend, I did a deep dive on what is ADHD? And I just went, Oh, this kind of helps explain a lot of her behaviors. Like sometimes she'd be like over an hour late to things. And I'd be like, for fuck's sake, woman, like seriously, like we're best friends, but it would piss me off.

[00:18:14] She'd forget my birthday and that would really hurt my feelings. It's not because she didn't care. So I totally feel that.

[00:18:21] I would have forgotten my own, honestly. I forget my age, to be honest. I started to understand and now I'm like, okay, I'll check in with her like an hour before we're planning to meet.

[00:18:34] I'm like, Hey, how are you traveling? And she'll be like, yep. Okay. I need to have a shower and she'll list off 20 things she needs to do. And I'll go, Hey, hang on. Do you think you can get that done in this amount of time? And then we'll have another check in maybe half an hour before, and I'll do one 10 minutes before.

[00:18:51] And it's not because I'm being pushy. It's just, it helps me. I'm someone who likes. To know what's happening. This unknown thing stresses me out, but also for her, it's keeping track of time as well. Time blindness is a real thing.

[00:19:07] Nikki: Yeah. It's an accountability thing too. I do this with my wife as well.

[00:19:11] I'm sure she's done it with me also, but. I'm pretty quick when it comes to getting ready for stuff because I don't require like a lot of hair maintenance or anything like that and she's got curls so there's like definitely a variable when we're like everybody's got a shower and get ready to go out.

[00:19:25] Yeah. And so if we've got to go somewhere, and I'm looking at time going, okay, we've got to leave now. Okay, you've got to shower first. We got to figure out what's going on. What do you need to do before we leave this, and this? I'm like, okay, do you actually need to do all of those things?

[00:19:37] Yeah. Because if you don't need to do all of those things, what's the thing that you need to do right now before we have to be where we need to go? And the thing is even just holding somebody else accountable like that also makes me more aware of situations where I might need to hold myself more accountable or ask for somebody to also hold me accountable.

[00:19:58] It, I, it definitely helps to have a, An accountability buddy to, to press on that nerve a little bit, because as much as I hate having a routine and needing to be structured, it's that is also in many ways, the only way to keep me pointed in the right direction, because I, start my day with the intention of doing X, but I pointed myself in the direction of why it's like X is not even a thought in my brain anymore, and I think there's a lot to be said for learning how to manage your day to day life once you have an awareness of that. And to your point, like whether or not you have a diagnosis, even if it's not a formal diagnosis, but you can say, I recognize these patterns in myself, and these things would be useful for me to leverage to make my life easier.

[00:20:45] At this point, literally anything that takes stress away or simplifies my tasks or some, I can delegate something to somebody. I will absolutely do it. And I think before I used to just shame spiral about how I couldn't get it all done, or I couldn't be responsible enough to take care of these little things.

[00:21:04] And you're like, you just, you have to figure out your own. Map of what things work for you and what doesn't work for you. And sometimes what doesn't work for you is just something that happens in life because other people rely on you and you're like, okay, then what's my, what's the way that I can make it the least painful as possible to do it.

[00:21:28] Rosie: It has such an impact on your day to day. I don't think a lot of people realize that. And what I want to hear your experience, I want to hear about your experience of unmasking because you mentioned before how we just. learn to hack our way through life. And I, this is probably a realization probably just this year.

[00:21:50] I've been masking all my life, but I didn't realize it. Was it a similar experience?

[00:21:57] Nikki: Yeah. I think that when it came, when I came to the realization that this was now very much a part of who I am or had always been, it really required me to also look at the way that I acted in previous. Scenarios work related with my family, with my friends, because one of the biggest things that can be challenging for me and some of this might be ADHD and some of it might be the nature nurture aspect of growing up in a home where there's, certain responses and reactions to things.

[00:22:31] But I've always, since I was a kid, historically been just very impulsive and quick to anger. And I would say, my mom would always say to me, You're so gentle when you want to be. And I think that for me was helpful because it reassured me that I wasn't just this inherently bad, angry person. But when I lose my cool, and again, I'm saying historically, because I think for the most part, it's not as, as heavy there, there are certain nerves that can be that can be struck that I might still feel fairly explosive, but at least can recognize that it's not an appropriate reaction to have, and maybe I can take a beat for a second, but it was like unmasking Made it so I could identify that not as just this deep personality flaw, this uncontrollable sort of rage that I was having, but it was this, sense of what's happening in my body is this immense discomfort that then is leading to this explosive reaction that's coming out and being pointed in the direction of whoever is in the blast radius of whatever the trigger was.

[00:23:37] And I will say, because this diagnosis came at the time where there was a lot more gas lighting and things like that with my ex as well. there was just like a whole mess of things that were converging at the same time for me to recognize. Okay, I'm behaving this way and I can adapt my behavior, but then there's this other stuff that's happening.

[00:23:59] And when you're in an abusive relationship and you're getting gas lit, it is very hard not to be reactive sometimes because you're like, not crazy. And I'm going to flip the fuck out. Yeah. And so I do think that it was very eye opening for me. But with my situation, there was a little bit of a unique experience because of the timing of it with everything else that was unfolding in my life.

[00:24:24] There was, I was being confronted with a lot of who I am at my very core at the same time and trying to do the best I could with what I had in those moments.

[00:24:34] Rosie: So you mentioned your abusive relationship. I want to understand. What that time in your life was like, because would you agree that was a traumatic experience for you?

[00:24:48] Nikki: I doubt it lightly, yes yeah, there were multiple really significant traumatic experiences encapsulated in that relationship and the entire relationship at large was really deeply traumatic because there was a lot of consistent trauma that was rapid fire happening so I couldn't even get out of the last thing before the was coming and looking back on it now, there was just.

[00:25:12] It was so much survival mode. I had a moment yesterday when I came in from taking out the trash with my, like putting it out on the curb with my wife. And I did a little skip between our cars going back into the garage. And I was just like, Oh my God, my life's so much better now. I'm so happy.

[00:25:28] It's just I'm so glad I don't like taking in the trash. But it's it's so nice to be so peaceful and so simply living life without the chaos and the pain.

[00:25:39] Rosie: Yeah, now I brought up trauma and had a very leading question going, do you agree that's traumatic? Because obviously, right? But the word trauma is thrown around so much.

[00:25:51] So in your opinion, what is trauma?

[00:25:55] Nikki: Oh, that is a loaded question. I mean, I think Trauma is subjective to some degree. I think there are some, I think there are certain events that are inherently traumatic, right? So the other piece of the personal Armageddon is I lost my mom at the same time that I was Leaving this abusive relationship and it was very sudden and unexpected and my greatest fear my entire life was my mom dying Like I just like from childhood and talk about having anxiety as a kid I like cried during partner reading because I just thought my mom was gonna die when I was in fourth grade and I feel like It's probably like What's happened?

[00:26:33] I guess I've always had anxiety now that I look back on it. But I do think that, I didn't understand that there were, I think death is an obvious traumatic experience when we lose somebody. That seems very clearly like there is some trauma associated with death of a loved one. And I lost a friend of mine when I was 16 in a car accident.

[00:26:54] I definitely felt the weight of things like that earlier in my life, but I didn't Really have the language around mental health or healing and things like that to be able to say, Oh, that's what this is. But when I was with my ex she had expressed things to me that had happened to her that were very traumatic, that she was diagnosed with PTSD.

[00:27:17] Honestly, like you with your friend getting a diagnosis and you being like, I'm going to dive head first and figure out what I need to know about this, which I was going to say, by the way, is like like textbook ADHD. Yeah. Yeah. Fixate on this thing and figure it out though. Okay. So I, I went really deep into understanding trauma trying to understand what could I do as a partner to be more supportive and to be able to understand the experience to try to help her live a better life.

[00:27:46] And so at this point I had been in an abusive relationship for many years still, but I didn't know it because she was a covert narcissist. When, for anybody who's listening who doesn't know a lot of times people think of narcissism. I think that's also an over utilized word. But somebody who is narcissistic, typically people think of them like they're very, outward and charming or compelling, very there's a lot of bravado that goes with it.

[00:28:10] My ex was extremely unassuming. Leaned a lot into the trauma that she allegedly had and I'll say allegedly because I do believe that there must have been some things that were true. However, I think there was a lot of manipulation. I know there was because she was living a double life with a substance abuse problem that I was, I want to say, naively unaware of because I thought she was dissociating and then it was really her being high but she was leaning into me thinking about things through the lens of trauma and she knew how to manipulate the situation and I say all this because it's like I think trauma for anybody is going to be determined by how it ultimately makes you feel in a moment if it's painful for you if it's dysregulating to your nervous system, if it puts you in a state of survival, whether that is the fight, Or flight, which a lot of people reference, but then there's freeze and fawn also, so you might do nothing, or you might just submit and let things happen, and I think to some degree with my ex there was a hyper vigilance that was my desire to fight, to try to figure it out and make it work because I didn't understand how much I was being manipulated psychologically, but then, I also let her play into what her experiences were and allowed that to manipulate me in certain ways.

[00:29:35] I know it's, I'm not victim blaming or shaming myself here. It's just when you're, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance that happens when somebody's being psychologically abusive. And so the other piece of it was this fawning where it was like, I just would give up. I would stop trying to understand the things that didn't make sense because it was causing me too much pain.

[00:29:54] Rosie: So I just

[00:29:55] Nikki: had to check out, right? And it was like these experiences that were happening were so unusual to me, so far out of the realm of what I ever thought my life would be, that I don't think I understood how traumatic it all was. Collectively until I was out of it, but I could identify that the individual situations that were happening were very traumatic.

[00:30:19] So I'll just get, I'll give an example of one to provide, um, context for the extreme nature of what was going on. There was one night where I was supposed to go, to therapy, I think, and she wasn't home and she was supposed to be working. And she had me tracking her phone because she was allegedly dissociating.

[00:30:41] And we had a couples therapist who ultimately ended up being very unethical, separate story who was validating that she was, Dissociating and saying that, keep a tracker on the phone in case she's going somewhere. You can make sure she's okay because by the end of our relationship, she had totaled three, almost four of my cars within a year and a half.

[00:31:01] I was like, I don't want you to, I don't want you to be driving. So the tracking was not me being like control freak. This was like, I'm concerned for your safety and your wellbeing. And I'm also being told I'm not allowed to stop you from driving. So I guess this is what we're doing. And yeah. So that night I checked her phone.

[00:31:17] She wasn't there. at work. It looked like her phone was in the lake that was a few miles away from my house. So I'm like, what the hell's going on? And she had my car and I find out I have friends come over to help me search for her.

[00:31:31] We're looking for her for a while. Can't find her at all. Her phone is. Somehow at the 7 Eleven that is right near the lake that my friend finds, gets that, and then we end up going back to my house, still can't find her, obviously I'm freaking out, and then she just nonchalantly rolls up to the house, and acts like it's not a big deal, and I'm like, what's going on, like this is chaos and, and I have my friends telling me this is like weird, and I'm, but I'm like, I'm really screwed up from this experience because I thought she was dead in a lake, to be honest.

[00:32:01] And so I'm no, she's she's not okay, blah, blah, blah. She's telling me that she was abducted, the car was stolen, and then all through the rest of the night, The scenario is now looking back on it. It's like super obvious how much she was lying to me. And I'm a little annoyed at myself for not being able to pull out of the situation, like to zoom out and be like, obviously this is what's happening.

[00:32:24] She was erasing text messages, owing people money, all this stuff. And then I'm talking to the cops and I'm like, you don't understand. You're not trauma informed. Duh, duh, I'm like, I'm going to the mat every single time. like a fool. And I like would be in couples therapy being like, I don't want to be a chump.

[00:32:40] I don't want to be a chump, and, but it's all playing out like that. And so this is one example. And I'm telling you, this is like one of several that are equally severely traumatic. And so if not more and when I think about that relationship, it was like I didn't understand, because I was naive, I'd never been in a situation there was a lot of drug use, so I didn't know what to look for, like I smoke weed, but like I'm, that's a very different type of situation at least in my experience, and then, I ultimately find out that there's a substantial situation where she's going out to get drugs.

[00:33:14] She's been lying, taking my money that I thought she was using for doctor's appointments. Um, And then I, it ultimately all comes to a head when I find dash cam footage of her because I got a dash cam cause my car's kept getting crashed. You know, um, I, it didn't face inward to the car, but I could see what was happening.

[00:33:32] And the last time she near totaled my car, she picked up a homeless person, went to go get drugs and did heroin in my car as a police car drove by and then denied it.

[00:33:42] Rosie: What was that moment like for you?

[00:33:45] Nikki: It was surreal, like numb, surreal. You know, Have you ever had that moment, one of those moments in life where it's not like you're blacking out, but it's like the space around you just blurs and you're like, how is this my life right now? That's what it was like.

[00:34:04] And that was The real catalyst for getting me out of the situation, because there were plenty of other things, I basically nurtured her through the withdrawal that she was going through. Which another one of my close friends who has a sister who dealt with addiction for years addiction to heroin was like, I'm telling you right now, that's not the first time she's done this.

[00:34:23] If it's lasting that long, I couldn't hear it yet, but my ex was still blaming me for not being supportive enough, all these other things. And so it was like, at what point do I prioritize myself so I can live a good life, and so much of my energy had been focused on, I want to keep you safe. I want you to live a good life. I'm so mad at the people who hurt you. You should be able to live a good life. And all of a sudden stepping back and being like, where is my good life? Yeah. It was like a real eye opening moment. And Yeah, it got progressively worse after that.

[00:34:57] And when I left for ultimately ended up being three months, but the first month that I was gone is when my mom passed away. So I was actually back home with my family on the East Coast. So I'm grateful for that. But after that, when I got back, she She physically assaulted me within 24 hours of me getting back because I found her phone where she was trying to, talking to somebody about getting drugs, and I'm laughing about it, not because it's, it's insanely traumatic, but it's I just, it was such a surreal unfolding of everything, and you know it's bad when you're, people in your life are like, oh my gosh, it sounds like a I don't know if you guys have Lifetime down there, but Lifetime's all the really corny murder shows that people like, you know what I mean?

[00:35:40] Like, that type of stuff. And they're like, it sounds like a Lifetime movie. And I'm like, oh, that's so bad. I don't, that's not, I don't want to live that life. And then I'm looking at it going, this could easily have been a true crime documentary too. Like, There's so much stuff happening. And all of a sudden I'm just like, not, I'm, me?

[00:35:57] But I'm living a life that's not mine is how it ultimately felt by the end of it. And so when I was able to actually extract myself from that, I could see much more clearly the trauma and the sequence of how it all just progressed into getting worse and worse, because you get really worn down when more things are happening.

[00:36:20] It's harder to fight back. So at first I felt a lot of conviction and then I was like, Oh wait, now I'm realizing I've been lied to this whole time. But I also feel this, responsibility to take care of somebody. And at some point, like you got to choose yourself because the person you're worried about being traumatized is actually the one traumatizing you.

[00:36:41] I guess all of that to say I don't think there's one definition for trauma. I think that when you are in something and you are, you've lost, a part of yourself because the circumstances are so harmful to your well being.

[00:36:57] That's to me just the hallmark sign of something being traumatic. And obviously there's varying degrees of that. And what I just shared is extremely traumatic stuff. But it's not, I think what's beautiful looking back now is that I was, In a position where I already had a therapist, I had a strong support system, and I knew that even though I wasn't sharing this stuff with people, my therapist was there, she did know this, she was the only one for a while who knew what was going on And when I was able to finally release myself from that grip and share more with the people in my life, my friends, my family, like the healing can really begin.

[00:37:39] And so it's you have to admit that the trauma is there to be able to heal it.

[00:37:46] Rosie: That's powerful. You have to admit that the trauma is there. I feel like that is such a big piece and I, I just have to add this in there because trauma looks different to everybody and what you experienced clearly traumatic, but someone else's version of trauma could be totally different and they might go, Oh, but it was nothing like what Nikki went through.

[00:38:12] This isn't trauma. I call bullshit on that.

[00:38:15] Nikki: Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point. No, and I think it's, I think it's a problem when people minimize their own experiences because of somebody else's, and in fact, you know what I did do that with my ex because of what she had seemingly experienced.

[00:38:28] Things that I went through couldn't have been that bad, right? Or things that are happening to other people aren't that bad. But I. Never minimize your own experience by way of comparison to somebody else's because you don't want to invalidate the truth of your own story. Yeah.

[00:38:48] Rosie: So if you

[00:38:49] Nikki: don't

[00:38:49] Rosie: mind me asking, how long were you with your ex?

[00:38:52] Over 10 years. Yeah.

[00:38:55] Nikki: I was really young too. When we met, I was 23 and she was 31. And so I think there was also like a power dynamic a little bit at play with being the older person who, when she would do things that were like a little morally questionable before all this more severe stuff I think I bowed to that a little because I felt oh, I'm the younger one and I was being told that, right?

[00:39:18] Like you're younger, you don't get it.

[00:39:21] Rosie: And why do you think you tried to, what is it, I don't know, this superwoman complex almost? Like you're trying Right! because I don't want to give away identifiable details, but I've got a friend at the moment going through something similar. I can see it, right? But she Oh, everybody saw it but me.

[00:39:40] Oh! And she's just trying to save this person. They are, oh, freaking asshole. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:49] Nikki: One of my, one of my closest friends, one of the divorce papers were signed and I sent a message letting her know she sent me a video. back and was crying tears of joy to know that like I was free from it.

[00:40:02] So it really does impact the people around you. And my mom and one of my other closest friends had a conversation at one point where my mom said, I'm worried she'll never leave because she's so loyal.

[00:40:14] My wife and I had a conversation, my now wife, Nicole, and I had a conversation recently, we're talking about core values. And I said, I don't know if loyalty is actually one of mine. And it's not because I don't want to, be loyal to people that I love, but I think that's what kept me in a really bad situation for so long.

[00:40:33] And I don't know that everybody deserves loyalty. So when it comes to that situation, It was catastrophic and the people around me, one of the hardest things to hear when I left was how people were like well, you couldn't see it, you were too close to it. And I should have said more, but I just, we didn't want, to alienate you and have you feel like you couldn't, we couldn't, wouldn't be there for you.

[00:40:57] And so the people who are witnessing somebody go through that type of struggle. I think it's really challenging because I've, because I've also witnessed this and I've witnessed it while I was in it and I could give somebody else better advice than I would have known to take for myself, which is like really awful um, as a, that is like a tragic human flaw to be able to see it in somebody else, but not identify it when it's happening to you.

[00:41:23] It's what an absolute shame to be able to give the advice but not take it when it's so detrimental to your well being. You asked a question that led to that and I forget where it was. I don't even remember. But I will say that I think there's when you look at the type of events that unfold with things like that, It's hard to be an onlooker, but you also have to know that somebody's not going to leave until they're ready, or they're not going to hear it until they're ready, and I had a guest on my show, and this stuck with me it was so meaningful when they said it was, you left when you could.

[00:42:03] And it really gave me the opportunity to have some grace for myself, considering the circumstances. Because I look back and I'm like, why didn't I leave then? I said I was leaving and then I tried to leave. And it takes an average of seven times to leave an abusive relationship. Shit, seven times. I mean, Don't start counting, like, how many times that's true.

[00:42:24] That's not a good idea. You're like, it's seven now go um, but, but there is something to, our desire as friends to be able to offer the advice or the support and to be there. The worst thing that we can also do is push somebody when they're not, If somebody is in an abusive relationship, that person is already being isolated.

[00:42:50] So yes, it's a very delicate situation to both be present and trying to offer the advice that they need or be the support that they need without overstepping to the point where they then are digging their heels and defending this person. And I did that a lot because I was worried about what other people would think about me.

[00:43:11] What does it say? What does it say about me? If this is the person that I chose. So you try to downplay their shittiness Because you don't want it to seem like you're shitty. And guess what? You might not be shitty, but your picker is. You made a poor decision here. Yeah. And you have to ultimately face that, which is honestly the hardest part.

[00:43:31] Because I look at it and I'm like, Hello, if I had ended the self worth that I have now, I never would have said that we should even date. It would have been an immediate no. But so much of what we want when we pick the wrong person, is for them to just love us. We want to be loved. And it's but not everybody is worthy of loving you.

[00:43:51] So love yourself first and then find somebody who does.

[00:43:55] Rosie: I want to talk about forgiveness. I feel like it's part of healing. I think I'm very conflicted on this idea of forgiveness and what exactly it means. But you mentioned how you felt, you know, that abusive relationship would reflect on you and that you're not a good person.

[00:44:17] There would have been a lot of shame there. What role has forgiveness played for you in your healing journey?

[00:44:24] Nikki: I love that question, Rosie. Oh, it has been, it's been a long journey with forgiveness. And I don't know that I'm still on it, probably. I've definitely there. There's a few elements that were really profound for me when it comes to the forgiveness piece of it.

[00:44:41] There's forgiving myself for staying too long

[00:44:44] for choosing a relationship that wasn't healthy for me from the beginning and not being able to recognize that. But there was a lot of things that were required of me to grow to get to that point. So I can forgive the younger version of myself who didn't know better and who had to unfortunately learn the hard way.

[00:45:01] Okay. When it comes to forgiving my ex, that has been a much windier road for different reasons. I could look at it and say somebody with addiction issues, to some degree, they'll do whatever they're going to do to make, Things happen the way that they need it to.

[00:45:20] I actually interviewed somebody who had a substantial substance abuse problem and he was sharing his experience and it was, it gave me some grace for her. Um, Because he's like, it doesn't even matter even if she did love you, she still would have done those things anyway. I do think that there's potential that it's not just the addiction, but her as a person also, you know? I don't know that she, I don't know that she's a good person. I think maybe she wanted to be, and the environment didn't suit that she didn't have a supportive family. I, she didn't have she had a false a faux supportive family, but they never showed up when it mattered. She didn't really have friends, which is classic narcissist.

[00:46:02] And then the other piece of it is that when my mom died, like we were separated and I asked her to come to the funeral. And I regret that I really do because she made it very difficult and tense between my family and myself and revealed to me really who she was and then after that, the physical assault that I mentioned.

[00:46:23] And, I'm I for a very long time was angry about everything she had done to Destruct my life Being unfruit being just unapologetic about that, but more than anything Because we lost my mom at that time She dragged the divorce on, all she had to do was sign the papers and she still would have gotten half because of where we lived and what the laws were.

[00:46:50] But it was like, she continuously lied, she continuously blamed me, she had our couples therapist write a letter of recognizance to get her out of jail after the assault saying I was the abusive one.

[00:47:01] Rosie: Oh my god.

[00:47:02] Nikki: And, I'm just trying to get this divorce done and over with because my family literally hasn't had a chance to grieve the loss of my mom.

[00:47:09] And that for me, has been and continues to be the biggest point of contention when it comes to finding a sense of full forgiveness. You know, We're all human, we make mistakes, whatever, her life choices are that's her choice. I'm glad to have extracted myself from it, but, to be so selfish, to not just walk away when, My mom had just died and let us process that.

[00:47:40] It disgusts me. And it's a hard forgiveness to give. And I know that people say you forgive somebody for you, not for them. But I find that morally repugnant and it's really hard to say I forgive you when you do something like that. Now if she came back, legally, she's not allowed to because there had to be a restraining order.

[00:48:01] But, If, which, by the way they say go no contact when you're with a narcissist because otherwise they'll never leave you alone. And all things considered, as much as it sucked to go through every experience that I had, good thing there was a restraining order because it meant like there are no, there is no next time.

[00:48:15] Like this, we're done here officially, right? But if she came back around and had the wherewithal to do the healing work that she needed to do to be able to apologize and actually mean it I think I would respect that. But it wouldn't change the fact that it was completely inappropriate and unacceptable when it happened, so it's like there, there was a lot more resentment than there is now. It's really, I think, gone from resentment to just disgust and disappointment because that person's supposed to be. Your partner your, your support system. And it was like, I was 150 percent her support system and she was 0 percent mine.

[00:48:54] And I've said this on a few other shows, my friend, another friend said to me, and this was actually a very pivotal moment in getting me to recognize that I needed to leave was you're asking for the bare minimum and you're not even getting that. Meanwhile, I'm bleeding myself dry in every aspect of the word, emotionally, financially, psychologically.

[00:49:15] Like There's no stopping. And so why am I accepting this? And you have to take a real long, hard look in the mirror and ask yourself why you're willing to do all of that. Because it's not everything has to be one to one reciprocated, but a true partnership, a real loving, healthy relationship.

[00:49:33] You don't need to beg somebody to be there for you. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:39] Rosie: So how can someone, someone like me, I've never had, I've never been in an abusive relationship, right? And I've seen a couple of friends go through it, going through it. How can I, or other people with loved ones in their life who are in an abusive situation, how can we best support them?

[00:50:01] Because you mentioned before, they have to be ready to do it and it has to be them. So what do we do as these onlookers? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:12] Nikki: I wish I had a really good answer for that. I know that for me it was very fortunate that my friends were still very present and available for me for the most part.

[00:50:28] There were some that unfortunately were alienated a little bit because they were in proximity to myself and my ex and so they were sort of, um, Sort of being affected by it residually. Um, But my friends who weren't local, who didn't have all the context and weren't there, I would spend hours on the phone with my friends.

[00:50:47] And even if they weren't getting all the details, just being able to talk about things. And I think the most important part of it is It will twofold. One is check in on them because they might not be inclined to reach out. I'm somebody who I do reach out. Like I, I want to connect. Just doing the podcast the way that you do.

[00:51:08] I'm very similar. Like I want to have the conversation. So even though that was like a real shit storm that was happening in my life, I had my podcast and I had conversations all the time, so it was a little bit different than some people where you're fully isolated, so reach out to them because they might not feel comfortable reaching out to you.

[00:51:25] And the other thing is when you do talk to them, a lot of times what will happen when somebody is in an abusive relationship, my own experience, what I've witnessed with other people is they'll talk a lot about the really shitty things that are going on in the relationship they're venting, right?

[00:51:41] They're trying to find a place to go with all the things that they can't hold on their own. And having friends who could also make me laugh, not about that situation necessarily, but something in life. Having moments of levity in those conversations was so important it took some of the sting away from the reality of what was happening.

[00:52:06] And it, it did give me hope because it meant that those low lows that I was feeling weren't the only feeling that I could have.

[00:52:15] Rosie: it's just so hard. I think on both sides, I haven't figured out how to best support these people. And in fact, in one. scenario and there's guilt around this for me, but I've had to remove myself because it's second nature for me to try and solve the problem and I want to help them. In fact, I'm not helping them because they don't want that help.

[00:52:38] I've been there as well. So I understand that feeling.

[00:52:41] It's fucking hard. But then what plays on my mind is part of the abuse and the coercive control and the narcissism or whatever else is at play, they isolate you. And I go, fuck, I'm just playing into that by removing myself. So it's just, it's so complicated.

[00:53:02] And

[00:53:04] Nikki: can I ask a question? So in the situations or a situation that you're describing, have you had moments where you felt like the person that you want to be supportive of and be there for? Have they had moments where they sound like they see the light and they're going to make the decision to leave and then they don't?

[00:53:25] Because that's the situation that I've run into several times. And it's really hard because you're like, I can't use, I feel like, you know, and so the fact that you know, and you're still not leaving means that you're not ready to leave yet. And I don't, and cause I get where you're coming from. It's, you don't want to abandon them, but you also can only say it so many times.

[00:53:48] Rosie: Yeah, it's, this is interesting. There's one person I'm still trying to support who is doing that, driving me nuts. The person I've actually removed myself from didn't see it and she was putting herself and her children in very compromising situations and it just for my own well being, I just, I just couldn't anymore.

[00:54:08] But the frustration I feel with this other friend, I've had multiple messages, yep, it's over, I'm done, I've left. And I'm like, yes, I'm so proud of you. And then a week later. Turns out they're back together. I'm like, fuck. And often the conversation is they'll say, I'm going to give them one more chance.

[00:54:27] Nikki: I've gotten really blunt and been like listen, I'm, I hear what you're saying and I'm here to support you, but I'm not going to tell you what you want to hear. So I'm going to be real honest with you. So what you're saying to me is this is how I feel about it. Take it or leave it, but I'm going to just be really blunt and honest with you now.

[00:54:44] And it's not because I don't love you. In fact, it's because I do. So like when you realize that this is the situation, I will be here for you. Or if by some chance it gets better, I will also be there for you. like it's very hard to be in a position where somebody is like, I'm out. And they're like, Oh, I'm back in.

[00:55:01] I'm out. I'm back in. Because the other thing is I'm never going to get on board with your relationship. if you're not even on board with your relationship.

[00:55:07] Rosie: Right. Oh my God. Yes. What a way of putting it.

[00:55:12] Nikki: Yeah. Oh, that's the most clarity I've had around it. So it worked out great. We don't get to dictate the decisions that other people make.

[00:55:21] And even if we can see that it would be in their best interest, I can tell you right now, my family would have dragged me out of that situation as fast as they could, if I would have let them,

[00:55:29] Rosie: yeah.

[00:55:30] Nikki: It's it's super tragic to witness people going through it now that I've been through it also.

[00:55:37] But what I will say, and and I think is really important to emphasize, is that If somebody is listening and you are on the precipice of leaving and you're in that sort of I'm almost there, but I'm not there. Yeah. I constantly, I want to say constantly, I have regularly thought about the fact that I wish I had left sooner, not only because of all the ongoing things that happened that kept me feeling worse and worse, but because of how massively better it got.

[00:56:09] Once I did leave and I'm telling you like I left it was The first time my ex was physically abusive. I lost my mom like shit was sideways. Okay, it was the worst It could have possibly fucking been I was having issues at work. I was gonna need to leave I'm like my life's falling apart and I have no idea up from down at this point and It felt like moments after that, because I was doing therapy twice a week now at that point.

[00:56:35] And I was like, we're going to need to up this. And then I was, I had a really strong support system, whether that's one or a handful of people, like having people that you can trust and rely on and be there for an ask to hold space for you. I, Met my partner and we were friends first. And she was there like from the time I basically got my divorce attorney through like the, finally getting to grieve the loss of my mom.

[00:57:03] And it was like, my life went from completely shattered into just so fulfilled so timeline's not always going to be the same for people, but just as an example, it's it can get better. And the only reason it won't get better is because you are choosing to stay in it. They will not change. You need to leave.

[00:57:27] And when you do leave, it might be hard. It might be hard because you have kids. It might be hard because you are financially reliant on somebody. Thankfully, I didn't have those things in my own experience, but I had somebody who was digging their heels and making it extremely difficult, causing more issues as time was going on.

[00:57:42] But that is temporary.

[00:57:44] Rosie: Yeah.

[00:57:45] Nikki: And you can have a better life. It is absolutely possible. You just have to choose you and it is so much easier said than done. So if somebody's listening, thinking, yeah well, it's different for me. Yeah, it totally is because we're all different. Would you rather keep doing this and know that it's going to be shitty always, if not worse, or have that discomfort knowing that you have to go through that for it to get better and then it can be better.

[00:58:14] There, it's an obvious choice. It's just, you have to trust and love yourself enough to know that you can make it through the in between stage.

[00:58:24] Rosie: And you deserve it.

[00:58:25] Nikki: Yeah, a hundred percent. I'm just, I'm like so happy now. It's insane. telling these stories now, Rosie is so weird because it's like almost an out of body, was that really my life lens that I'm looking at it through.

[00:58:40] And then being like, Oh my God, I'm so safe, not just safe in my environment, but safe in my body safe to be who I am safe to talk about my story because God, I hope, I hope one person hears this conversation and is like, Oh, I'm going to make a different choice for myself because that there's going to be an aha moment where it's going to click.

[00:59:03] And when it comes to being the supportive friend in this, this is what I will say. The friends who said the really important things that ultimately led me to being able to leave They stayed with me along the way They were honest with me whether or not I wanted to hear it

[00:59:18] They were gentle in their honesty also, Like you can be firm but gentle in your honesty and I think that's part of it and at one point one of my closest friends said to me Or asked me a very simple question Are you happy?

[00:59:33] Nope, and I haven't been for a long time. And it's really hard to deny, because even if I didn't answer that question to her, I had to answer that question for myself. And the answer was a big fat fucking no.

[00:59:48] Rosie: Thank you so much for sharing this, because I have learned so much through this, and I know people listening.

[00:59:55] would have learned a lot, but also people going through this, I think, will feel incredibly validated. You know, You shared you were with your ex for 10 years, because this shit is hard. Yeah. And you don't necessarily see it.

[01:00:09] Nikki: No. And, I really appreciate you giving me the platform to share it.

[01:00:12] And I'm feeling a little bit like I, I just spewed out so much stuff and maybe it wasn't as eloquent as I would have liked it to be, but it's. There's so much complexity in these types of situations. And so it's challenging sometimes to find the balance of what parts are important to share, because I think that it gives sharing certain pieces of my story.

[01:00:35] The reason that I do it is because I think it emphasizes the severity of the situation, which is important when you consider things like somebody thinking, Oh my situation's worse than that, or my situation isn't as much as that. This is my experience, and whether or not you fall on a spectrum higher or lower in terms of what you deem the level of trauma or tragedy is, it doesn't matter.

[01:00:59] you hear somebody else's story, and you know that they at least understand conceptually what you're going through. If I just sit here and say, oh, I was traumatized by my narcissistic ex okay who has a narcissistic ex hasn't been traumatized to some degree, right? It doesn't matter.

[01:01:14] I lived a very happy, normal, as normal as you can be, life for most of my life. And everything that happened in that relationship was completely foreign to me until it was happening. And I didn't understand. Until I was out of it, because when you were in it, the entire name of the game is keeping you disoriented, making sure that you don't have time to come up for air and question it.

[01:01:39] And so the best thing that you can do for yourself is give yourself even just a little bit of space to separate yourself and see it for what it really is. And that in combination with the people who are close to you. In my life, giving me really honest feedback are what ultimately saved my life and honestly, podcasting because the guests that I had sharing their stories showed me how important it was to do that.

[01:02:04] Rosie: So share a bit more about the podcasting. Cause I haven't mentioned it yet, but you've released over, I think, 128 episodes, something crazy. So talk me through this because I know for me, podcasting has been incredibly healing. What made you start it and what has that been like?

[01:02:21] Nikki: Yeah, so I started the show in 2019 because I was miserable at my job and feeling like I lacked purpose and that was around the same time, I think I'd been in therapy for about a year.

[01:02:32] And so I had said to my therapist, I know I'm meant to connect with people and I don't know what that looks like yet. And I started blogging briefly and. I had started so many blogs for a brief fleeting moment in time that I ditched pretty rapidly because I realized I don't like having to just put something out there and hope somebody grabs onto it.

[01:02:51] I love dialoguing like this. And so when I started the podcast, it was really, it was originally called who the fuck and the premise was like, who the fuck am I asking myself that question, asking other people, how'd you become who you are? Like what is your life? And so really similar to what you're doing here, which is I think why I felt such an immediate connection, just listening to some of your content and the way you approach it.

[01:03:14] And it was like this opportunity to just better understand myself by extending curiosity and compassion to my guests. And in return, also receiving that, because when you're asking people like this to be vulnerable about their stories, you get a lot of information that you're not getting from people like this.

[01:03:37] In many other situations,

[01:03:39] even the closest people in your life. In fact, I would say the combination of going to therapy and podcasting made me a lot more honest in my relationships, particularly more willing to prompt the vulnerable questions and to ask people to open up if they were comfortable doing it, because.

[01:04:00] I just saw so much benefit from it. I was blown away by what emotional transparency could do in terms of raising awareness about my own life. Even if the circumstances weren't the same, not everything has to be an identical unfolding in the situations that happened to us, but the outcomes, the resilience, the human spirit, and the sense of self that so many people were speaking to, it was a very.

[01:04:29] It was the through line in every single episode. It was like, this is how I became who I am. And varying degrees of trauma, varying degrees of emotional work or spiritual work or things like that. I learned about so many different healing modalities and had conversations about topics I never would have considered talking about before.

[01:04:50] And it just opened my world to so many new perspectives that it transformed me. And I, it happened. At a time where I needed it the most, because I really believe because this was all happening, everything I was describing was happening at the peak of everything was during COVID. And so it was truly a lifeboat amidst the roughest waters that I'd experienced.

[01:05:13] And because people who are abusive can be really good at isolating you, having the podcast made it impossible for that to happen. And I was very lucky in that regard as well.

[01:05:25] Rosie: Podcasting rocks. Can I just say it's, I'm biased. That's the best fricking awesome .

[01:05:30] Nikki: It's, It's the best. Well, And because, you know, I, I'm curious for you Rosie, like when you started it, what was the catalyst for you?

[01:05:38] Rosie: I wanted to find my voice. Who the fricking hell am I like, yeah, it might sound silly to some people, but you just look around and go. Who am I? Why? What? How did I end up here? What do I want from life?

[01:05:52] Nikki: Yeah. It was like, what do I believe in? Why do I believe it? Yes. And do I actually believe it?

[01:05:56] Rosie: Yes. And that's a continuous journey. Like I am still on it, but I feel so much more confident in who I am now and also comfortable in the fact that it's going to change. It's not like you define, this is who I am and it never changes. In fact, I can't imagine anything worse.

[01:06:16] Nikki: Yeah. Oh, I totally agree with you.

[01:06:17] I feel like the beauty of our human experience is the evolution and people who are so stuck in their ways and not wanting to change, it baffles me because I see so much beauty in growth that it's it actually, it makes me sad for somebody who doesn't want to change. And I feel like when you have the opportunity to learn from other people, it, as you mentioned, it's very healing.

[01:06:40] It's also. Quite profound in terms of revealing parts of yourself to you and to be able to identify elements of who you are that you didn't even know existed. It's quite amazing. And I agree completely transformative. And if it weren't a constant journey, I don't think it would be nearly as much fun.

[01:07:03] Rosie: Yeah, I agree. And life should be fun. It's an adventure, right? Let's start living. One more thing I want to touch on, right? I could just continue talking for so long, but I want to touch on this.

[01:07:17] Nikki: I feel like we need to just uh, we need a

[01:07:20] Rosie: series .

[01:07:22] Nikki: Yeah. We need to embrace this relationship.

[01:07:24] I'm I it's so nice meeting people through the podcast that you're like, I wanna be friends with you. And then you're like, you were so far away. .

[01:07:32] Rosie: And on that this new podcast I'm starting is with someone I met through podcasting.

[01:07:37] Nikki: Exactly. It's great. Oh my God. It's also, what I love is people are like, I don't know how to make friends as an adult.

[01:07:42] I'm like, start a podcast, man. It's like the best. Yes.

[01:07:44] Rosie: I suck at making friends, but hey, on a podcast, I'm actually pretty good at it. Yeah. Oh, back to this question though. This is the last heavy one I'll ask, I promise.

[01:07:58] This healing thing is something I've been exploring a lot, or even this journey of personal growth, which I think is. Part of healing. It's tied in. Do you think we need to hit these rock bottom moments in order to be able to heal? You went through some heavy shit with this relationship and your mum dying.

[01:08:18] And I'm sure there's all more things that you haven't even mentioned. Do you think you had to go through that in order to make the change and experience all this personal growth? Or would it have happened anyway without these big events?

[01:08:34] Nikki: I ask myself that often and I would say for better or for worse, I had to go through it when people say, I wouldn't have changed a thing because it got me to where I am.

[01:08:48] I don't agree with that statement because if I could have, because if I could have changed all the really uncomfortable, painful, horrible things that happened, if I didn't have to have those memories embedded in my brain and my body, I would gladly relinquish those. If I could still have the personal growth, I'd be like, sure, ditch that shit.

[01:09:06] It's fine. I'm still going to be my highest, best self, but. I do think that, I was really naive because I did grow up with very, I had privilege and I didn't have a lot of challenges overall that were significant. And when I look at it and again, significance is subjective, right?

[01:09:29] So I'm sure to some degree, there's things that I went through that were very difficult, but I said to my wife the other day, I I know that if I hadn't met my ex I probably would have settled for somebody who is moderately compatible for me. And it might have been, and it might have been fine, or maybe a little toxic, but manageable.

[01:09:52] But it wouldn't have been, it would never have been able to be everything that our relationship is, because I wouldn't be who I am if I didn't go through all these things that forced me to really recognize how little self worth that I had, how little self love that I had. And so it's unfortunate that it had to unfold the way that it did.

[01:10:15] But I like 10 X to the quality. I like a thousand X to the quality of my life because I chose not to let that stuff define me and I chose to heal through it. And what I've witnessed is the difference between the people who. experience trauma and sort of use, we started off talking about labels. People identify with their trauma a lot of times.

[01:10:40] And that's not to say that I don't hold pieces of that, but my ex would always be like, there's a target on my back. And I'm like, you can't live life like that. Like that's, So counterintuitive to having a healthy mindset and being able to live in a sense of peace. And I understand why you might feel that way, but you holding on to that is part of the problem.

[01:11:02] So you have to be willing to take the reins on your healing journey and know that, like that growth will come after rock bottom if that's what you choose, but you have to choose it. And you're gonna have low moments, you're still gonna have low moments. Like the amount of times, like I randomly break down about certain things because I'm realizing this isn't like fully healed or there's salt on a wound or something like it's that can be really challenging.

[01:11:33] And it can feel frustrating because you're like, I'm over it. I wish. Like I want, I'm done. I don't want to like, fuck that I'm over it. And then it'll creep back in and you're like, you know what? I guess it's just showing me where I've still got some work to do. And so I think when it comes to really seeing who I am now and getting to this place of recognizing my full expression of who I am, yeah, it was absolutely critical to helping me understand the patterns that I was holding onto that were keeping me.

[01:12:11] stuck in toxic relationships and willing to sacrifice myself for somebody else, which nobody should ever be doing.

[01:12:18] Rosie: Agreed. And what you said about choice, I believe that's what it's all about. We do have a choice and as uncomfortable as that is, if we are staying in a situation, an abusive situation, whatever it is.

[01:12:30] That is a choice.

[01:12:32] Nikki: I hated taking the accountability when my therapist prompted me with that and she was like, first of all, she was absolutely like, this is all true. And also what role did you play in that? And I'd like to think of myself as a good therapy client because I think rationally I understand a lot.

[01:12:54] So I can be like, yes, what you're saying is reasonable, but does that mean that I want to hear it? No, No. How dare you ask me to be accountable for the decisions I made in my life. Rude. But that's fine. It happens, and I know that there is this part of me that felt really angry that it, that my ex doesn't have to be accountable because of the way things unfolded.

[01:13:22] Like, But, I'm living like a way better life. Yeah. My life's really fucking good. And you know why? Because I was accountable because I was like, I'm going to heal. I'm not going to let this drag me down. It was almost as if I saw somebody take the path you shouldn't take. And I was trying to save that person.

[01:13:41] And because I was trying to save that person, I learned all the things that I needed to know to save myself when I left.

[01:13:46] Yeah. So I guess to to totally loop around and be like, yes, to answer your question. Absolutely. I had to go through it because I had to learn all the things that I need to know so I could get out of it.

[01:13:56] Rosie: Yeah. Full

[01:13:57] Nikki: circle.

[01:13:57] Rosie: Yeah. No, it is a full circle moment. I really agree with that. My final question, I'll have more for you in the future. Maybe I'll have you back on, I don't know. We'll talk off the mic. And this is something I ask all my guests. What does freedom mean to you?

[01:14:15] Nikki: I feel like I actually, okay, you can edit this out if you need to, but I actually wrote, I wrote something the other day because freedom, it's liberation, right? It's really liberating to be able to love yourself enough to find the love that you deserve. And freedom to me is loving yourself enough to make the choices that feel good to you and to follow your intuition and know that whatever path you're on, you're going to Is the right path when you're not restricted by the choices that somebody else is making, it's like, it's really fully taking ownership of your life for better and for worse as we've described.

[01:15:01] But freedom is having the choice to, to be the full expression of yourself and to do that without hesitation and unapologetically.

[01:15:12] That's beautiful.

[01:15:13] Rosie: And I think It's something we all deserve. And I've got to say, Nicky I just

[01:15:18] Nikki: want it so badly for everyone.

[01:15:19] Rosie: Come on, guys. Catch up. Everyone deserves it, but what a powerful way to end the episode.

[01:15:27] And I just want to say thank you so much for your honesty, your vulnerability, and the wisdom you've shared. I think I've learnt a lot, but also I'm going to leave with a lot of questions and things to think about, which I love.

[01:15:41] Nikki: Thank you so much, Rosie. This has been such a blast. I hope that I was able to like make some sense of all of it.

[01:15:46] Like I'm still trying to figure out the best way to say the most important parts, but you've been like a really excellent guide as a host in getting the conversation where it needed to go. And I love your passion for it. And I can feel your empathy in the questions that you're asking and your curiosity.

[01:16:02] And it's this is exactly the type of conversation that I love to have with people. Thanks for having me on and letting me be part of it. Of course.

[01:16:10] Rosie: And as a final note to listeners, go check out Nikki's podcast, Can I Just Say? She has wrapped it up, but you've got 128 episodes to catch up on. And, A new one coming out too.

[01:16:21] Exactly. Yeah. She's launching a new one with her wife, which I love. I'm excited. So yeah, keep an eye out for that. And Nikki, thank you so much. We'll talk soon. Yeah. Thanks so much, Rosie.