64: How to create your first online course with Dr Catrina Mitchum

Rosie (00:00)

Welcome back to the Pursuit of Freedom podcast. It is really hot here in Western Australia. It's 30 degrees Celsius and it's only eight in the morning. And of course I'm recording a podcast. So there is no airflow right now because who wants to hear a fan in the background?

I think I need to come up with a way to stay cooler when recording these episodes, because it's coming into summer. Moving on from that though, we have got an awesome guest with us today. So help me welcome Dr. Katrina Mitchum. She is a learning experience designer and she does online learning differently. And as you all know, I love when things are done differently. I hate the status quo.

So if you have been thinking about jumping on the online course bandwagon and don't know where to start, or maybe you've had a crack at it and it's really not going to plan, then this is the episode for you. I've never had an episode like this. So maybe have a notebook ready. If you're driving or on a walk, come back to it. Maybe listen and then listen again. It's going to be really cool. Katrina, thank you so much for joining me.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (01:02)

Thanks for having me, Rosie.

Rosie (01:04)

Yeah, of course. Now I always like to start, learning a bit more about my guests rather than the what they do. So can you tell us a bit about Katrina when you were younger? Cause there's you today, but what was the journey like?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (01:21)

not too different. And so one of my favorite things to share when people ask for like a weird story or a quirky thing or like the icebreaker stuff, right, is that when I was in the fourth grade, I won a trophy.

Rosie (01:31)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (01:39)

for reading. And that pretty much sums up that sums up me as a child, but also as as an adult, I could win trophies for reading now because I just am a voracious reader.

Rosie (01:52)

I love that. sometimes people say we're totally different people to who we are as kids, but I almost think like we return to who we are as children. kind of go on this journey, we drift away from it and go, actually, I've always been an avid reader or whatever. Like it sounds like the reading thing's been with you from the get go. Never got lost. but tell us.

I remember when we first met, you referred to online courses as tools for change. And that really stuck with me because I think there's, well, it's kind of two camps because online courses are like this huge thing. It's very in trend at the moment. And there's the camper people who were like, another online course. you're just taking advantage. And then.

There seems to be a rather large camp of people. see the value in it, but perhaps the wrong sort of value. go, this is a way for me to make lots of money really quickly and not doing any work. But tell me your take on online courses.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (02:57)

I just did a YouTube video about that. I made predictions for 2025. And I think that what you've identified is that first camp are actually the buyers. They're skeptical because I don't know if you've taken an online course before that you absolutely regretted paying for, but I know I have.

Rosie (03:00)

I love it!

Yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (03:21)

And I think that more people have been buying those courses and being burned by those courses and it's not what was being sold to them or maybe it was, but they're realizing that just watching videos hasn't been helping them do the thing. They need other things to help them do the thing. And so people aren't.

Rosie (03:28)

Mm-hmm.

you

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (03:43)

buying. And so that first first cape of people I think is is the buyers and I think the second cape of people are the people who are trying to, make a ton of money off of creating video, I like to call them video vaults. So the video vault courses where it's just

Rosie (03:58)

Yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (04:02)

paywall YouTube, basically. And I just don't think that's going to work anymore. I think that first group of people you identified is getting bigger because I'm seeing in threads, in Reddit, there are more and more people calling out specific course creators.

Rosie (04:04)

yes, that's exactly what it is.

Mmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (04:25)

for making these things that they're just not being successful in for a variety of different reasons. But really it comes down to the course design, right? These things aren't being designed for people to learn. And when you buy a course and when you want to learn, it's because you want to change something. want to learn because there's something they want to change.

Rosie (04:34)

you

Yeah, that's so true. So what makes a good course?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (04:49)

something that makes a good course is cohesion, right? So very clear goals and everything about that course is connected to those goals. And so every step that you're asking them to take, every piece of content that you give them is about helping them reach very, very specific goals. Making sure that it's in addition to being cohesive, it's also transparent.

Rosie (05:09)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (05:17)

So if you're asking them to watch a video, explain how it's going to help them get to that endpoint. If you're asking them to do something, then explain how it's connected to all the other pieces and then how it's gonna help them get to that end goal. So there is more to it than that. But I mean, to me, those are the two like really kind of big umbrella concepts that courses need.

Rosie (05:24)

Okay, yeah.

Mmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (05:45)

to be able to be and do, I think, in order to be good courses.

Rosie (05:51)

as an ex-teacher, totally agree, right? And I'm just thinking to all the online courses I've ever done, I don't think any of them have done what you just said.

And I'm thinking of one high ticket course I bought a few years ago. I'm not going to share how much because it still hurts.

multiple four figures, like big investment. And yeah, it kind of, you were talking about, you know, a video vault. That's essentially what it is. Paywall to YouTube, except the videos are like over an hour long. And Katrina, honestly, you don't, not that you have to do videos a certain way, but they are screen recordings of the person reading word for word off a PowerPoint. And I'm like, why?

why bother putting a video there?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (06:36)

think that's another thing that a lot of folks get wrong is that video is not our only way to communicate information. so choosing the method of delivery, we'll call it, is really dependent on who's taking your course what the content is. Does it have to be a video?

Rosie (06:42)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (06:56)

What's the benefit of being a video? They don't need to know, like, and trust you anymore. They already bought from And so, and so if it can be an audio, then make it an audio. If it's better for like an example that I like to use as busy parents, because I am one myself, I've got more time to listen to a podcast than to watch a video. So if I don't need the visual, then don't include the visual.

Rosie (07:02)

That's true.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

but you have to have video.

so Right. most people have heard of online education, online courses. It's very appealing to those of us who want a bit of location, flexibility, and that sort of thing.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (07:24)

I hate have-tos.

Rosie (07:38)

So what would your advice be to someone who is thinking about creating an online course? Where should they start? Is it something that anybody can do? What should they be keeping in mind?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (07:51)

I think it is something that anybody can do. think keeping in mind, you know, how much training you yourself has have as a teacher, right? If you don't have a background in understanding how people learn, then maybe get some help. There are lots of YouTube videos that help with that. It might mean you start like veering a little bit into education as opposed to the solopreneur, but I did start a YouTube channel because of that. I feel like there's

Rosie (08:00)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (08:21)

there's a need for understanding how people learn and how to build a course that is well designed without like breaking your own mental health, right? Because it can be really overwhelming to try to do it yourself. And so I'm a big believer in creating. in education, we call it a course map. And I'm actually gonna just keep that term because I think it's a really good.

Rosie (08:24)

I agree.

Right, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (08:48)

way to articulate a plan. It's a plan for the course, but it also maps everything into an easy to see format of this is what I'm having them do so that you can start with the tasks and then pull in the content they need instead of overloading them with content because that's not going to help. They're going to be like, okay, well, what do I do with all this information? And it gets lost, right?

Rosie (08:52)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (09:16)

can articulate whether or not something is accessible, you can include the whys. And so it's kind of like all in this single space where you can see everything that you're planning for this course. And then you can make a decision. Some people like to build things before they sell them and run them because...

doing it on the fly is anxiety inducing, like their eyes starts to twitch and I completely get that. Those kinds of things to me are personal preference. Whereas I'm like, all right, let's go, thank you for playing. But in both cases, that course map is gonna help you create something that people can actually.

Rosie (09:42)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (10:01)

learn from and get their change from and that helps your business. creates sustainability because people want to rave about you. They want to come back for more for other things that you're offering. They want to recommend you. And otherwise you might end up on one of those

buyer's remorse list.

Rosie (10:19)

One question on that actually, I'm really good these online course creators are beginning to get called out. But I've also noticed, like for the programs I'm in that I regret buying, there's people, cause often there's an associated online community part. People rave about these courses and say how great they are. And I just scratched my head and go, what? I'm confused. Am I just the odd one out?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (10:21)

Mm-hmm.

Rosie (10:48)

finding it awful or what is going on there?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (10:52)

I think that there's potentially a couple things going on. I think first, a lot of people, even people that buy a course still assume that a lot of information equals a lot of quality. Even if they're not doing any sort of reflecting on, okay, well, what did I actually do with it? Where am I now compared to where I was?

Rosie (11:06)

Yes, yes.

Mmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (11:20)

so I think that is part of it. They're just kind of making assumptions of, it's all of this stuff. And so of course it's quality. know, 10 years down the line when they realize they haven't actually done the thing, that might be a little bit different. I also think that in certain subjects, we might already be natural learners, like have a good idea of

Rosie (11:32)

Thanks.

Hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (11:47)

things we've already done. So some people that are raving about it, let's say it was a course on digital marketing, and let's say they have some experience doing emails specifically. And so this course might actually be building more solidly on a foundation they already have. And so they might actually be getting more out of it because the course was designed for them and not for you.

Rosie (12:08)

Mm.

Yeah, true.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (12:15)

Right? Because that is something I think a lot of people don't consider either is how is my learner coming to me? What are they coming to me with? What experience do they have? What knowledge do they already have? Because that's going to be a really important piece to how you're going to design the course and what you're going to have in it.

Rosie (12:34)

So how good do you think course creators are at identifying who their ideal client is? Because, and I want your take on this, because from my point of view, it makes sense to be very clear on who your course is for. If you have it too broad, how are you going to meet all those different needs? So tell me, how good are people at designing courses for a specific group of people?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (12:59)

I think in general not very good because they don't want to leave anybody out, right? Because that always kind of feels like you're leaving money on the table. And there are ways to handle that. There are ways that you can design a course for who you anticipate taking it. And then you can design.

Rosie (13:02)

Right, yes.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Okay, yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (13:20)

rabbit trails for people who may come to you not quite ready and they need something else. You can have little pieces that are you know if you haven't done this if you don't have experience with this if you haven't heard this term before

Rosie (13:25)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (13:35)

here is a place for you to go get that extra help. I would consider that extra support, right? Even if it's just off to its own little mini course or its own little explanation. So there are ways to kind of mitigate that if you do have a broader audience. Because I I fall into that, right? I attract people that are all over the course creation spectrum from very beginner to I have a course, but it's

Rosie (13:40)

Mmm, mmm.

Hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (14:02)

Right? And so they would come to my course in very different stages of things. And for me, it's about giving them the path. The information's all the same. My advice is kind of always going to be the same no matter where you are. But your path through what I can give you is different. And that's something I have yet to see anybody do well.

Rosie (14:08)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah, yeah. And a lot of these gurus, preach.

It's one high ticket course and that's how you make money. But you've just talked about having different paths.

So can you talk to us from a business perspective, why does it make sense to offer these different paths?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (14:47)

Because people come to you, even if you're super niche, people come to you with all different life experiences and all different skill levels in the thing that you're trying to teach them how to do. And so letting them kind of pick and choose, sometimes it's a path, like my own program is a pick your path. So you can take various pieces that are going to actually support you and what you need. And so thinking about

Rosie (14:52)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (15:17)

it as smaller mini courses with maybe a membership that does the supporting. Like everybody can be together for the community, that doesn't matter. But how you're getting the information and how you're applying the information that will need to shift and change. And so from a business perspective, having multiple smaller courses, while it will take you a little bit longer to to get to that bigger ticket, you are

Rosie (15:26)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (15:46)

better able to serve a wider group of people because you can give, you know, exactly what they need at the moment that they need it. It also lets you be more flexible, right? Instead of creating this like 12 month monstrosity, right? With the hour long videos, you're helping them do something step by step, which is really actually how learning works.

Rosie (15:57)

Yeah.

Hmm. Hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (16:15)

I mean, not exactly step by step, but you can't do certain things without having certain information or without having done other pieces to build off of.

Rosie (16:24)

Mm.

So where does a beginner start? We've got, I've got this image, right? There's these sort of mini courses, appetizers on the way to the main, main course. But where do we start? I'm feeling overwhelmed. I'm a newbie. Where do I start, Katrina? Tell me what to do.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (16:42)

You start with what you want your course to be on.

Rosie (16:45)

Okay, yep, that makes sense.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (16:48)

You would be surprised how many folks I talked to who are like, I want to make a course and I'm like, great, what's it on? And they're like, well, I don't know. Or it's like something super broad like baking. Okay. And so I find like asking yourself questions about what you're interested in, what you can teach on, what you know a lot about, what you know more than somebody else about.

Rosie (16:56)

I don't know.

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (17:16)

Like those are things that just take some time to write them out. And then picking your favorites, right? Because it is about potential clients, but it's also about you. If you're gonna create something that you're investing a lot of time and energy in, if you get bored with it, you're gonna hate it. You're just gonna hate it. It's not gonna work at all. And so spending some time thinking about what you like best and then...

Rosie (17:16)

Mm-hmm.

That's not gonna work, it? Yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (17:47)

write up descriptions of what those courses would look like and then ask people. So maybe have three, narrow it down to three, write some descriptions and then go to the people that would potentially buy from you and be like, if I offered a course on this and this is what was in it.

Rosie (17:51)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (18:06)

Would you be interested? Yes, no, tell me what you would want differently. Right. And that's sort of a really good way to, I'm a firm believer in all along the process. So from those initial like ideas all the way through the course map and to the end of the course, getting feedback.

all along the way so that you can, like really, I've got this Venn diagram image that I use a lot. It's a balance between you, what you're teaching, and the person that you're teaching. And the sweet spot is right in the middle, right? And so trying to find that balance. But anyway, back to the beginner. We're asking them, you know, what would they like better, what they would change, and then we can take that.

Rosie (18:36)

Mm-hmm.

Ha!

Mm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (18:51)

and start to build goals for it. so if you were to take a course on this, and this is the description, are these goals something that you would have in mind? What other goals might you have, right? It's really becomes kind of this extended conversation. it's almost like co-creating a course with a bunch of different people that would be really interested in taking it with you.

Rosie (19:08)

Yeah.

That makes so much sense and actually it makes it feel a lot more achievable because you're not telling me, yep, just go out and create the curriculum and off you go, done. It's actually, there's manageable steps there. Okay, write out some ideas, which one would you enjoy the most and are you most interested in? Then go talk to some people and then do this. That makes me feel hopeful. That sounds achievable to me.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (19:38)

Good. Good.

Rosie (19:40)

But I feel like mindset is a big piece of this for people who want to create a course. Some people won't even start or won't let themselves get too far on even what the course is about because they go, no one's going to pay for that. Or I don't know enough about that. I didn't do a degree in that. We're in a recession. No one, you know, I can't make any money. It's just unrealistic. So what role would you say mindset?

place.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (20:09)

I would say it plays a big one. For all the reasons that you just that you just listed, right, people get into this idea like imposter syndrome is a syndrome that is rampant, especially with women. Thinking that you you don't know enough, you're not good enough. And remembering that you you learned the thing that you know how to do. Right?

Rosie (20:19)

Yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (20:36)

sometimes it's hard to remember being a beginner and how far you've come. And so I always recommend like doing a reflection on

Rosie (20:41)

Yes, yes.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (20:48)

Like just remembering that very first time that you set on the path to learn the thing that you think you might want to teach somebody else. And you don't even have to, you don't have to have all the answers. And I say that knowing that nobody has all the answers. Like I don't even have all the answers. A lot of the answers that you'll find are found with other people. And so if you're saying to yourself, I don't even know if anybody's going to buy this. Ask.

Rosie (21:03)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah, duh!

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (21:18)

It's okay to ask, right? It's absolutely okay to ask. And I think the more fun that people have with it around like making it flexible.

and something that's smushy and something that can be moldable by you and other people. I think taking that approach can help alleviate some of that, well, it has to be perfect. And I have to have this degree in order to be able to teach it. And I have to, all of those have tos that kind of get in the way, I think.

Rosie (21:53)

Yeah, those have to's. What I'm beginning to realise on my own journey, feel free to disagree with me, I'm finding I don't have to be an expert to be an expert in inverted commas to be able to teach people. It baffles me that just being a couple of steps ahead of them, people still find really valuable.

And my realization has been, I can be open about being early on in my journey, but still serve people and still offer Am I, am I going crazy? Yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (22:32)

absolutely agree. No, no, I don't think you are. think and I think that comes down to people needing needing those smaller steps.

Right? And so it's almost, it's almost easier to be like, okay, well, Rosie teaches on this and this is exactly where I am. Like, I don't want someone that's teaching me how to scale because I'm not there yet.

Rosie (22:58)

Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. And I've been in discussion with a podcasting platform because you know, I'm a podcaster. I've been doing it 18 months, but I, it's hard, really hard to gain traction. Right. But I've been having conversations like, think I can still serve people because I am so close to where the absolute beginner is at. And I'm still experiencing some of the same things.

So it's very fresh in my memory compared to a podcast to say with tens of thousands of downloads every month, trying to teach a beginner what they need to be thinking out about when they start a podcast. So it's definitely been a mindset shift for me. And I think, or I hope it gives other people some hope and optimism. Like you do have something to offer just because it's not, or it doesn't look like how you thought it should. Doesn't mean that people won't pay for it.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (23:55)

Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. And I think, I mean, you're also being 18 months out. I mean, I've only been a business for two years. And we're still very close to the scrappy not crappy phase of a business where we're kind of like, we're doing this on our own. Okay, so how do we do this on our own, without spending a shit ton of money? And without losing our minds? Okay, I can help you with that, because that's what you need right now. Whereas somebody that's

Rosie (24:03)

Mm-mm.

like that

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (24:24)

been doing this for a decade forgets and it's also a very different world right now than it was 10 years ago in terms of doing it scrappier.

Rosie (24:27)

Mmm.

I was just gonna say that.

And on that point, things change, right? But the sexiest thing right now in online education, I think, is design an evergreen course. You make it once, you put it out into the world.

Dust your hands off, that's it, walk away. But you just said things change. What is your opinion on the Evergreen course model? Is there a place for it? What's good about it? What's not so good about it?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (25:07)

I think it's largely bullshit. So and that's, it's not entirely right, but the idea that you could like set and forget something completely.

Rosie (25:09)

HAHAHA

Yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (25:19)

baffles me, honestly. There are certain things about a course that are likely you're gonna be able to put in there and you may not have to make changes to it. So there are, you know, activities and steps and certain things that are just always going to be core to learning something. But so much of it changes and if you're not changing with it, then you're gonna start having, you know, refund requests, honestly.

Rosie (25:36)

Right.

you

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (25:47)

I do feel like if you do want something that is a little bit more stable, right? So you're not re-recording videos every time. That's totally legit. You don't have to. Not recreating things every time you run the course or having something that people can just jump into. I think that is absolutely something. It doesn't have to be like this kind of cohort model. It can be something that's not a cohort model.

Rosie (25:55)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm, mmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (26:17)

But in order to do that you have to do it well and you have to have the design be something that people can work through and then reach out if they need help and support or have questions or things break because things will break links will break things will stop downloading your PDF will get corrupted like a million different things

Rosie (26:28)

Mmm.

here.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (26:39)

Especially as like if you're if you're hosting it in a platform when those platforms make back-end changes sometimes Things break so so you can it is possible to have more evergreen elements of a course But it shouldn't ever be like something that you feel like is running on its own It can be something where people are doing more self-study

Rosie (26:50)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (27:09)

And I've kind of, I kind of like that phrase, I think that shift in phrase from evergreen to self study because there will be things and you'll find things that you want to change, right? So even if you're planning to do a course like that, where it's a little bit more hands off, you should still be doing the first few iterations, like with other people.

Rosie (27:16)

Mmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (27:34)

Even if some of those are like with videos Just because those I'd say at least the first two or three runs The feedback that you get will actually help you better support something that you won't have to change in the long run because you'll know where exactly like those stutter steps happen and where people tend to stop or get stuck or Maybe need to have like a strategy session with you, which

Rosie (27:38)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (28:02)

you can upcharge for, all of the different models that are out there. I think running a beta test of a course, even if it's going to be evergreen, is gold.

Rosie (28:04)

Right.

Yeah. If you want to do this well, you do need to listen to that feedback. It's not going to be perfect the first time around. I really like that. Can you share with us what your program or what your offerings look like? Cause I'm really curious. You're someone who cares about the learning experience. You've just called bullshit on this, you know, mystical evergreen model. So what does yours look like? I'm guessing it's maybe a mishmash of different elements.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (28:40)

It is. It is a mishmash of different elements. So I do have videos. I do also have just audios, depending. But a lot of my videos are videos because sometimes, most of the time, I'm showing what that next step looks like and giving examples. And so that's really, that's kind of important because there's not ever just one way to do something, especially in when you're designing learning. And so I like to show a bunch of different examples of what course maps look like.

Rosie (28:45)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (29:09)

and how I like to do mine and how I've done them for some other people just to give what the options are. There's not really a wrong answer. There are ways that you could do it poorly. But we cover those theoretical concepts and bring them down into the physical, like I use a mirror board, I'm gonna show you.

Rosie (29:20)

Right, right.

Mmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (29:31)

So a lot of it is videos, only because it helps to show those things. And then an activity. And it's not like a lot of courses that I've been in, it's like video, video, video, video. look, here's a PDF of the workbook that I never mentioned. And so mine is more a video with the thing you're going to do and the information you need and why we're doing it. And then the thing I want you to do. And then there's a lot of space for feedback.

Rosie (29:44)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (29:59)

which you can ask for or not, it's completely up to you. So like I've got a forum where like in the beginning, the course maker is what I call the beginner course, where when you get to the goals, the point where I'm having you write goals.

Rosie (30:00)

Hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (30:14)

If you want feedback on them, from me, as opposed to your audience, you should definitely ask your audience, then there's a form. And I just do a real quick, like, this is how you might make them a little bit more concrete, or how do these goals work together to get them to the big thing, things like that. Because feedback on little pieces like that is important. And I think makes it feel more worthwhile to do and go through the steps for.

Rosie (30:19)

Hehehehe

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (30:44)

for people that are beginning.

Rosie (30:46)

Yeah, I know for me, self-directed study can be really helpful. I can learn as and when it suits me, but that support element, getting feedback. I really value that big time. And I like how you, know, what your example just then.

It wasn't like you're having an hour long video call with this person to give feedback. You're giving some written feedback. So that sounds really achievable. And it's something you can fit in with your, your schedule without dedicating hours and hours and hours to it.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (31:23)

Exactly, exactly. I do tend to have like a once a week. I call it an AMA session, but just because I really like the ask me anything model and it's not me talking at you, right? Like any, I feel like any synchronous time should be spent workshopping or asking questions, right? If you have somebody on camera, it should be a flipping conversation. It should not be.

Rosie (31:30)

Cool. Yeah.

Mm.

Yes.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (31:50)

you giving more information because that could have been done in a video so I can watch it on two times speed because that's that's how I watch and listen to everything.

Rosie (31:55)

Yes, yes. Just makes me think of all the useless staff meetings you have to attend and you're going, really? This could have been an email. This could have been a Lume, but you know. what does your typical day or week look like in terms of, you know, running these courses and these offerings?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (32:13)

you know, I get some asynchronous feedback requests and I give them and for me, I don't only have those in my course. I have them as things that you can, if you have a plan and you just want me to take a look at it.

Rosie (32:22)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (32:32)

I will take a look at it. And so my week is kind of filled with giving feedback on things. answering questions. There's always answering questions. Elaborating on things.

Rosie (32:34)

Mmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (32:45)

And then my YouTube channel because now I'm doing that. some of what I've been doing with clients has been feeding into the YouTube channel. so a lot of that, because I don't believe in gatekeeping content. And so a lot of it is going to be there.

Rosie (32:55)

Mmm.

I think people are scared to share it all. when I think about online courses.

I don't think the goal is the sharing of information. Like there's so much information on the internet. I feel like if you searched hard enough, you'd probably find something pretty close to what you're looking for. But how many of us actually implement that?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (33:25)

Yeah, yeah, courses are about implementing it, absolutely.

Rosie (33:30)

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, a lot of your time is spent on that feedback side of things, which I love because to me that's one of the most important elements. But tell me, you didn't always do this. How did you end up in this space?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (33:38)

Yeah.

lots of pain and suffering. No, I'm just kidding. I was a professor of writing for 16 years, I guess. I ended up leaving higher ed in 2023. I think it was January. I left I was in an admin and teaching position and

Rosie (33:47)

haha

Wow. Wow. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (34:09)

It just, I was sobered out. have a chronic illness and the stress and the number of hours I was working was making me worse. I have a spouse that's in the Coast Guard and so we move a lot. So my support system changes every couple of years and it just, it became to be too much. The impact I was having in the classroom was no longer enough for me.

Rosie (34:19)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (34:35)

And so I had to leave. I started my business before I left, but I landed on doing this in particular because I had been teaching online since 2009 and online only since 2010. So I was a remote employee at the university. All of the schools. Yeah.

Rosie (34:51)

Right.

Wow. You've been doing this since early days. Like that. don't think that was the norm back then.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (35:03)

It wasn't. I did get my PhD in a high-flex program, but the school where I went has kind of just been ahead of the game. And I didn't realize and appreciate it when I was there. But now I'm like, wow. they've been doing distance education since horse and carriages. So it looked way different back then. But I...

Rosie (35:12)

Love it.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (35:28)

decided to shift and take the things that I loved about the job before it became too much with me. So I got into teaching because specifically writing because I wanted to break down gates for people that were told you're a terrible writer, you do all these things wrong. I wanted to break those gates down.

Rosie (35:43)

Mmmmm

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (35:48)

And I loved doing the curriculum design and the teacher support. Like when I got into the admin position, I started doing more teacher training and I loved it. It was so much fun. And so those are kind of the things that I've brought with me. helping people create courses is teacher training. Right?

Rosie (36:00)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, right? Yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (36:12)

the gatekeeping, I'm a firm believer in removing barriers to learning and there's a lot of ways that we can do that through accessibility and transparency and just making it so that more people can actually complete the course that they're buying from you. Yeah, yeah, or at least getting what they need. Like I'm not a...

Rosie (36:27)

isn't that the goal, right?

Right.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (36:33)

I'm not a, like you don't have to check all the boxes or do all the modules, right? But they should be getting what they came for from the course.

Rosie (36:37)

Right, right, yeah.

Yes. I think so many course creators don't actually think about the customer's needs.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (36:49)

Yeah. Yeah. I think the model that we have now, or that I'm railing against, comes from a couple places. And I think one of them is actually YouTube. Because forever, people have been like, well, I don't know how to do XYZ. I'll go look it up on YouTube. But on YouTube, a lot of that stuff is hands on. Like there's a video that I was making a bow for a wreath.

Rosie (36:50)

Like, that's a problem.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (37:19)

not last year, a year before. And I did it. I made the bow. Was it perfect? I wouldn't take pictures of it. It was not. From the street, it looked great. Could I have done it last year? No, I had to go find the video again in order to make a new bow last year, right? And so YouTube is more of like a go to it, learn it, to do it immediately, but I'm not going to recall it later.

Rosie (37:34)

Yeah, right, right.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (37:45)

And I think people were taking that model of people going on and showing how to do things and trying to put it into a course, but you're not gonna keep going back to those videos over and over. And so you have to take somebody through the steps and application in a more meaningful way. And also, I'm not gonna take a course on how to do a bow. And so like completely different, people are trying to do it in completely different topics that are not applicable to just.

Rosie (37:52)

Yes. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (38:13)

watching a video. That's my theory at least.

Rosie (38:17)

It's so true. And I'm, I'm processing that cause I'm like, huh, that's right. We do apply what, you know, the YouTube space is doing. And then go, yeah, I'm going to shove that in online course. That's how it works. That's how people learn. This is how it's going to work. Maybe not though. Definitely not.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (38:37)

No.

Rosie (38:39)

Now I want to talk about the tech options out there because there's all these platforms now. There's so much choice with where to host an online course. I've got my own opinions on it, but I want to hear yours. You've been in this space for a long time. You know your shit.

What are your thoughts? There's the Thinkifix out there, the Kajabis, there's Teachable. Now, and then there's other platforms coming in on this space like Circle. And I discovered one called Heartbeat and Mighty Networks. it's just so many. Where do we start? Do we even need these platforms? How do we know if it's a good one?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (39:19)

they're all garbage.

Rosie (39:21)

Ha!

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (39:24)

I would even argue like platforms or learning management systems used in education are really also not that great. They're very much modeled after content.

Rosie (39:34)

Agreed.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (39:39)

It really is just about hosting content. HireEd and K12, at least they do have some space for activities and applications, but you have to go other places and use other tools in order to do it. And so I think it's all garbage. I'm gonna just start with that. But also we have to learn to work with the garbage, because that's what we have.

Rosie (39:50)

Right!

Love it.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (40:02)

And so I I've been getting a lot of what platform should I use? want to create a course questions. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait You don't have one yet. Like you don't have a design yet, then you should not be picking a platform, please Because it should always come down to what your needs are. Like how does the course need to be shared?

Rosie (40:20)

Okay.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (40:24)

What elements do you need? Because there are some platforms that have like self quizzes and so like somebody that I know has a course in

Rosie (40:30)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (40:33)

scuba diving, but it's all of the theory of scuba diving because you can't like, you can't learn it and then do it all in the same space, right? You get electrocuted. And so it's a lot of having to learn information that you write about and maybe quiz yourself on so that you can apply it when it really matters.

Rosie (40:35)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm... Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (40:54)

And so that kind of course would do better in a space where there are quizzes available, not every platform has a quiz. And so I really am a firm believer in.

make yourself a course map so you know what they need to do in order to like I'm only going to come back to the course map because then you can identify your needs right you say okay I need to have this I need to have this I need to have this and then you can go do the comparison I need my price range to be this or I want to do a beta and some some platforms will do like your first 10 people in there for free and so maybe you can run your beta without having to pay for the platform

Rosie (41:07)

All comes back to the course map. Yeah.

Mmmmm

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (41:30)

I don't think it's a matter of keeping up with all the new platforms. I think it's a matter of if you're new, identify your needs and then go find the platforms that will fit your needs. And then if you already have a course and you're already on a platform, it's about reassessing. How have my needs changed? And what is out there that might help me expand what I can do? Like, what do I want to do? And then what can I?

Rosie (41:48)

yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (41:57)

what can the platforms that are out there do for me?

Rosie (42:00)

makes so much sense. I shouldn't be going out and seeing which one has the most features? That's not what I should be doing? What?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (42:07)

I know, I know. Every time I see that question I'm like, please, please don't start there.

Rosie (42:14)

Yeah, course map people, go from there. So what do you use?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (42:17)

Go.

use Google Classrooms. It's free.

Rosie (42:23)

Yeah, that's nothing complicated. Doesn't have to be.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (42:30)

The user interface is a little, like it's not very drag and drop. And you do need to have an understanding of how to like structure a module because it won't tell you, right? So it is, there is a bit more of a learning curve than something like teachable where it just, you literally can drag and drop things into spaces.

Rosie (42:34)

Mmm, mmm.

Right, right.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (42:51)

But it's free and you can segment folks and so you can have people in different groups that you're giving access to different things. There's space for discussions. There's space, like I don't know that I really use the assignment features because I do like a form for my feedback requests.

Rosie (43:01)

Right.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (43:15)

But there's space for that if it's something that you wanted people to just like if you wanted to keep it all on the same platform, you could do that. There's quizzing available. There's all kinds of stuff. And it's free. That's that's usually and so I always hesitate to share that. That's one thing that like even even though I don't like to gatekeep, I'm I'm I'm like, but what if they make it not free because I'm

Rosie (43:23)

Mmm.

That's really cool. Yeah, which is awesome.

I'm sorry!

Exactly! It's like the best kept secret. I have not heard anyone in this space ever even mention Google Classroom. But there's this hidden gem right there and it's free.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (43:48)

Yeah. I think because I think because so many people don't know, right, that it's there. But there's benefit to having come from formal education. I just have a broader range of tools that I know of.

Rosie (43:53)

Mmm... Mmm...

Yes.

Absolutely. Now we kind of touched on this, but I want to understand a bit better in terms of how you deliver your courses. So you mentioned it can be useful to do like a couple of beta versions, which you would deliver live. But how do you do it now that you've got it all established? How does the master do it?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (44:24)

so it's there are recordings and there are activities and there are touch points. Like sometimes there are like, this is a point where people really struggle. So let's do this together. Right. And so that's a little bit of one-on-one as opposed to like one-on-group, but different people will hit that at different points if they're coming in at different points.

Rosie (44:28)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Right.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (44:51)

And then the Q &A sessions, right? And the there are things that I do live, but they're not things that you would assume. Like I'm not giving live master classes or live information or anything like that. Nope.

Rosie (44:56)

Mm-hmm.

No... No...

it doesn't have to be. Why do it if it doesn't have to be? Yeah.

Hmm. That's cool. Different elements. I really like that.

What do you reckon the biggest myth surrounding online education is? We mentioned one about thinking the more the better, the more information, the better. What do you think is the number one myth out there or misunderstanding even?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (45:31)

in addition to the more the better and evergreen like that would be another one. That's another man. you should start with content first. I think that's one that I see a lot. like people will say I've built my course and what they've done is they've recorded their videos. it's understandable, right? I mean, think back to

Rosie (45:34)

Yeah

Yeah, true! Ugh, yep.

Mmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (45:52)

when you were in formal education. And like everybody has had that teacher that just talked and talked and talked at them. And then, and then the exam came and you were like, I don't know any of this stuff. so it's, it's a pervasive kind of model. And people I think lean into that but

Rosie (45:55)

Yeah.

Yeah.

No idea. Yep.

Mmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (46:15)

There, I mean, there's a whole branch of research called learning science. Right. And, and it suggests that that's not, that's not the best way to do this. guide on the side, not sage on the stage. I didn't come up with that. It's just my favorite way to describe.

Rosie (46:23)

You don't say, yeah.

Not the way to go. Yeah.

Guide on the side. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. even outside of just the learning experience from a business perspective, it's extremely risky and a very silly use of time because if you're investing hours and hours into developing this course and then you put it out there and no one wants it.

What a waste of time and energy. And I've seen it happen.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (46:54)

Yeah, seriously. Yeah. to so many people. do think that like doing those initial steps that we were talking about and doing the asking, that can help alleviate it, but.

If you're not, if you're not giving, you know, when you give somebody a beta price on something, it means that the agreement is that they're also going to give something to you and that's feedback. so articulating that like, Hey, this is beta. It's 50 % off what I'm anticipating charging because I need to work out the kinks. I need to make sure that it goes smoothly. And so I'm going to have, you know, a survey every week, or I'm going to have, have you do this or have you do that.

Rosie (47:18)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (47:42)

or have an interview or whatever the way that you want to get the feedback is. more back and forth so you can help create. They can help you create something that just runs smoother when you get to the point where that's what you're doing, is things are running smoother.

Rosie (47:54)

you

Hmm. that's a scary thought for a lot of us, not having that content planned, but it listening to you talk through it, makes so much sense. And I think you'd probably end up with a better product. So in terms of the logistics of how that works, you've got, you've decided to do a beta run. Someone signed up, you've been very upfront with it. We haven't written all the content. So how does that work? Are we kind of rocking up without a plan or what do we do?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (48:23)

Nah, so the course map is your plan. And then you, I'm always going to come back to it Rosie. And then in that course map, the very first thing that I have folks do is actually write out the steps and the tasks. And so you can absolutely have those steps and tasks already created. And so that should help take away some of the angst about not having anything done, because you'll have that done.

Rosie (48:29)

Yeah.

Hey.

Mmm, mmm.

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (48:51)

and then your only job other than getting feedback and processing.

is to give them the information they need to do the tasks. And so that might be that you have some of that content, like you could maybe script some things or do a bullet list and then adjust it, right? As you're going, as you're giving the information, as their questions are coming up, that's how you're learning, okay, this is how I did it live. I have that recording. I have some things I can use. I have their questions that I need to pull in. Then I can go actually record the video that's gonna live in the course.

Rosie (49:00)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (49:26)

you

Rosie (49:26)

Right. And on recording the video, people get really hung up about having high production quality. Some even spend thousands of dollars hiring a videographer and an editor to do all of that. That's quite a high barrier to entry. Is it necessary?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (49:46)

Absolutely not. In fact in the age of AI being able to create videos I would argue that the opposite right like I mean doesn't have to be low quality, but the most important part about a video is going to be the audio whether or not they can clearly understand you and then if you're showing them something so

Rosie (49:52)

Hehe.

Yeah

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (50:12)

If you're showing them how to do calligraphy, you should have some, you know, it should be clear and it should be in the right spot. But you can do so much with just your cell phone. And a good like I've got this thing that attaches to my desk.

Rosie (50:18)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right, yeah.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (50:27)

and it's like an arm and you attach the phone to it and you can angle it all kinds of places so that you can sit down on a desk. Because sometimes people don't have the bandwidth to sit at a desk all day. So some of the examples that I give are like mind mapping by hand. Imagine that. so, right? And so most phones nowadays can do...

Rosie (50:32)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Shock horror?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (50:53)

anything that you want. don't record on my phone, I record on my laptop and my camera, my webcam is only 720 so...

Rosie (51:00)

Right. Yeah. Doesn't have to be fancy. Did you hear that everybody? You don't need to go out and buy all the expensive equipment. As long as people can hear you clearly and you know, like you said, if you're demonstrating something, do that well. It needs to be clear and at the right angle.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (51:04)

absolutely doesn't.

Rosie (51:22)

That's it. And obviously you've done your course map, you've thought about the activities and the exercises. You've thought about the learning experience and that's the important bit. Like, actually, no, I'm going to ask you, what's the most important bit about an online course, would you say? The one thing you absolutely have to get it right.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (51:39)

I like to use the word accessibility to cover all of it. And that means there's activities, it's accessible in that it's transparent and people understand what they need to do. And then the content is accessible. And so your video is not just a video. Your video is captioned. You've pulled the transcript. If you have the bandwidth also pulling the audio is super helpful.

Rosie (51:43)

Hmmmm

Yes.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (52:05)

But making sure that there are no barriers to consuming the content. That's really important because then if somebody's like, that's a terrible video, they can just go read it instead.

Rosie (52:18)

Right. Yeah. Have the options. Yeah. No, I like that. Accessibility is huge. And I have a feeling a lot of course creators aren't coming at it from that angle. They're thinking about, okay, what's the quickest and easiest way for me to just it done?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (52:37)

Yes, that's my I was recording a podcast a few weeks ago. And it's not about you is actually something I said. So I'm gonna say no, it isn't actually about you. If you want to be if you want to be successful, and you want this to be something sustainable, right? If you make it about you, then they're not going to be successful in the course. And they're not going to come back for more. They're not going to tell people.

my gosh, you have to take this course. They're not going to recommend you. There's so many valuable things about being a business owner and having somebody be in your corner and be your cheerleader after they've taken or while they're taking your course. That's just invaluable.

Rosie (53:04)

Mm.

Hmm.

I want to end on a question that I ask every guest on this podcast. And that is, what does freedom mean to you?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (53:29)

a slow cup of coffee in the morning.

Rosie (53:31)

Mmm. I don't like coffee, but I like that visual.

Katrina, thank you so much. I think some of the take home messages, one you just said, it's not about you. Funnily enough, you're trying to serve other people, but the importance of having a course map. You're not just flying blind. You need to talk to people, get some feedback. And then once you're a clearer, okay, this is what I'm going to do. Here's my course map.

and you're getting feedback at every possible stage.

an online course is something I would like to do. And I think one of my big stumbling blocks is, okay, what's it going to be on? That's a pretty important one, right? yeah. Hey, cool. Well, there you go. We'll check the link in the description and I will be downloading that. yeah. If there's a take home message you want to leave listeners with, what would it be?

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (54:10)

Yeah. It is. I've got a freebie for that, Rosie.

You can do it with the right support. If there's something that you know that you will, some good that you have that you want to put into the world, there's nothing stopping you.

Rosie (54:28)

Mmm.

Mmmmm

And I'd argue that we all have something good to put into the world. I think we all can do that. Maybe ask yourself if you want to serve people because this is about helping people learn and take action, right? If you just want the money, yeah, okay. Maybe just don't do that because you're going to be, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Katrina, thank you. Curve and templates, yeah. Exactly. Gosh. Here's to having more.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (54:49)

Yeah, that's true.

Not this. Do something else.

Create Canva templates.

Rosie (55:05)

high quality online course creators. think the work you are doing is amazing. It's so refreshing to talk to someone who calls bullshit on a lot of the mainstream ideas in this space. So thank you for being a rule breaker. Thank you for having such high standards. And I can't wait to have this episode go live because I know a lot of people are going to get a shit ton of value out of it.

Dr. Catrina Mitchum (55:27)

Thanks so much for having me, Rosie, at letting me break all the rules.

Rosie (55:29)

Yeah.