61: Fear, boundaries and saying no with Carol Kabaale

Rosie (00:42)

Welcome back to the Pursuit of Freedom podcast. It's a hot and sunny day here in Australia. And joining me is Carol Kabale, all the way in South Africa. She's got a really interesting story to share with us. She went from the corporate grind, working in hospitality, nine to five, but really more than nine to five. And is now on her third marketing agency that she has built from the ground up.

I can't wait to dive into this. Carol, welcome to the show.

Carol Kabaale (01:16)

so excited to be here, thank you Rosie. my gosh, this is gonna be fun, I can feel it.

Rosie (01:21)

It is going to be

But Carol, to start, I'd love to kind of dive into your story a bit. Even before you were working in hospitality, like what were you like growing up? Were you the good little girl? Were you the rule breaker? Who was Carol back in the day?

Carol Kabaale (01:40)

Carol was like such a good child. Shame, she was such a good girl. Very praised orientated. Carol was a very nice child, very sweet child, soft spoken child, but very outgoing child. I liked, I was always very confident. I was always the one who, you know, would

Rosie (01:43)

Yeah!

Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (02:02)

When someone said, hey, can you do a dance for us? Like, you your parents are like, Carol, come to this, come do this thing. I'm like, problem, I can do it. got to do it for us. Chilled vibes. So that was me. I grew with my mom. I grew up with my mom and dad and then my parents got divorced. So then I lived with my mom I went to an only girl school, which I didn't even know that was a thing. you've ever been to an only girl school, you know what I'm about to say.

Rosie (02:08)

Yeah

Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (02:27)

It's like the jungle out there. It's like Mean Girls on steroids. It's survival of the fittest. Girls are ruthless. So, yeah, that's where I grew up. I went to an only girl school. It's very traditional school. Lots of like values and things like that. And I didn't really find my tribe at

Rosie (02:29)

God.

Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (02:48)

Although I was very confident in myself, I found always being on the outskirts of things. I wouldn't call myself like, you know, traditional nerd. I was pretty cool, but I was like, no, no, no, I was cool. cool. I was cool. cool. I was definitely cool. But I wasn't the coolest girl. wasn't like, you know, I wouldn't say I was like top 10, but I was in the group. You know, I made the team. Definitely made the team.

Rosie (02:59)

Yeah, okay.

Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (03:16)

Yeah. And fun things about me back then is like, just, I really just wanted to fit in. looking back on it now as an adult, cause sometimes I can't even like, am I really an adult? But looking back on it, I'm like, I can't believe I wanted to fit in so much with, you know, no offense to them. If you're listening, I'm sure you're lovely people, but to people who really, I wouldn't, you know, give them the time of day now, you know, I just feel like.

Rosie (03:25)

Mm-hmm.

Hmmmm

Carol Kabaale (03:46)

I've grown so much that I don't need that validation from people who I never needed it from. Back then, I didn't know that, obviously. I was just craving it so much and so much acceptance that I wanted. And now I'm just like, I'm fine. It's myself, my dog, my husband, and some wine. I'm good. Like, go away. Please don't come and visit me. I'm great.

Rosie (03:52)

Mmm. Right.

Yeah, yeah.

So how did you get to that place then of realizing, I don't need to fit in stuff that what, what happened? Because I'm guessing it wasn't just like one day you woke up and it's all good.

Carol Kabaale (04:23)

No, it was many years, as I said, girls only schools are ruthless places. So there's many years of bullying and many years of insecurities. And I think where it really stopped was after high school when I went into university and I had to, I was away from those people. I was also raised in a very small town. One of those towns where everybody would know everybody's business and like, it's the worst. Please don't raise your children in small towns. Don't do that to them. Take them to big towns.

Rosie (04:28)

Hmm.

Carol Kabaale (04:54)

Let them experience things. You think you're helping them, you're who am I to say? I'm not a parent. But all I'm saying is I think university was better because I was away from that group. So was forced to really evaluate who am I without these people? Who do I want to be? No one knows me here. It was like a fresh start. Anything that I was holding on to that I had, you before someone might have said something to me like, Carol, you know, you

Rosie (05:07)

All right. Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (05:20)

I was always the only person who is from Latin America at my school. So was like, you're weird because you're not like South African, you know? And when I went to university, that was the thing that made me cool. People were like, my gosh, there's someone here. And then someone would be like, I'm from Brazil. I'm from the Netherlands. and that made me cool. Instead of it being the thing that I was bullied for.

Rosie (05:30)

you

Awesome. Yeah.

Right.

Carol Kabaale (05:46)

you know, that I didn't quite fit in, it was like celebrated. It's like, great. Tell me about your culture. Tell me about this, you know. So that was really nice. It was also great because I, as much as I love my mom, my mom is a narcissist and she's the world's best mom when she chooses to be. And it was nice to be away from that environment and realize that

Rosie (06:08)

Right, right.

Carol Kabaale (06:14)

I don't have to walk on eggshells all the time. I can just be and be happy. And that was weird. It was very weird. Like your body had time to catch its breath and it was like, what do we do with all this energy now? So yeah, that was kind of where the discovery, if you can call it that came. And that's when I decided I like how this feels and I am never going back. It's like someone who probably shops at like Louis Vuitton or Gucci or whatever it is or Flyers First Class.

Rosie (06:16)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Carol Kabaale (06:44)

to coach, you can never go back to economy. I mean, they have real life and forks up there and a bed.

Rosie (06:54)

What's the Pringles slogan? Once you start, you can't stop, you know? Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (06:58)

There we go! You can't! I mean, I've tasted it now. You can't take it away from me. I have to fly first class.

Rosie (07:05)

Yeah, I can't relate to the first class bit. I haven't done that yet, yet, but I can relate to once you step into who you are, you can't, you can't turn back from that. It's just, it's never the same. I'd love to hear your thoughts on why society at large places so much importance on fitting in. Why are we so obsessed with that?

Carol Kabaale (07:12)

Yes, yes, yes.

Yeah.

Bye.

I think it comes down to our primal instinct of living in community. Like, you know, way back when, when we were in the stone ages, we had to survive. You had to be part of the flock. You had to be part of the group. If you went against the group, you'd likely die. So I think deep, deep down in our DNA, somewhere, again, not a scientist, but it's what I believe, in our DNA, there must be something that tells us if you stray from the group,

Rosie (07:40)

Mm.

Carol Kabaale (08:02)

bad things will happen. So we resist that. And also we're constantly told if you are, you know, if you step away from the group, you can get all these labels at it that know that are never positive. It's always like rebel, maven, rule breaker. you're walking on the dark side. Why can't we have nice things? she's by herself. She's having a good time. Why is it always so negative? So we grow with that in our mind. It sticks with us. And then

Rosie (08:13)

you

Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (08:31)

Other people chirp in your ear because, you know, they've also been taught the same thing. And in their defense, I think in a weird way, they're trying to help you. They're like, listen, friend, don't, don't go, stay, stay in the group, stay in the safety. But what they don't realize is by keeping you here, you're not reaching your full potential. And it's really scary. Like someone asked me the other day, like, why I started my business. And I know we'll talk about that, but like, it's fear.

Rosie (08:40)

Mmm.

Right.

Carol Kabaale (09:00)

Fear keeps you from stepping away from the group. Fear keeps you from doing things that you know in your heart of hearts you just need to do. But it's this debilitating fear of the unknown, of the what ifs, that you're just like, I can't.

Rosie (09:00)

Yeah.

Yes.

yeah.

Do you think I'm forming thoughts as I say this question, I haven't thought about it before. Do you think we're born with that fear or do we learn it?

Carol Kabaale (09:32)

I'm gonna get very woo here for a second. I think we're born with fear. I think we're born with the fear. I once had a lovely session with this energy worker lady and she said to me that there was moments during my mom's pregnancy where she felt guilt and fear and those emotions and those trapped emotions have now are in me. And now I'm not saying, hey,

Rosie (09:34)

Yeah, let's

Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (10:01)

I'm going to take accountability. I'm not saying like I'm the way I am because of some person. No, no, no. That's not what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to shift blame. But I do believe that the environments you grow up with, you're naturally like a sponge. If you grow up with an environment where everybody's constantly shouting and screaming and this, you pick up on that. Like your body stores that energy, that trauma, that fear in your body. And it materializes in different ways, whether it's anxiety, whether it's actual illness, whether it's like,

Rosie (10:13)

Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (10:31)

you know, ability to not connect with people. It's something, it always shows up as something. And I do believe that if you don't release it, it does go, a part of it does go to the next person because it's in your DNA, it's in you. So when you create life, of course a part of it has to go. It's why I probably wear glasses, my mom wears glasses, it's genetics, it's in there. So if simple things like that can be passed down, why not more tangible things like fear?

Rosie (10:35)

Yeah, yeah.

trying.

Hmm. Hmm. It's an interesting take. And it's almost, this is where science perhaps can't quite explain it all right. I think, there is this innate fear, but also, you know, as I'm an ex teacher and I've taught from, you know, the little E's all the way up to high school.

Carol Kabaale (11:00)

Yo, I definitely believe you.

Sooner.

Rosie (11:19)

And you see as very young kids or toddlers, there seems to be less fear and more of an attitude of giving things a go. Of course they are scared of things. There's fear there, right? But then as they get older, they learn the rules. This is how you do it. And it's good to do this. It's bad to do that. Failure is bad. you can't do that. And it's kind of like, we, we are conditioned, we are groomed to have this fear. It's like.

Carol Kabaale (11:29)

YAH!

Hmm

Yes.

Rosie (11:49)

It does control us. And I would love to know what role fear has played for you, because you weren't always an entrepreneur. So take us back to when you worked in hospitality. Tell us a little bit about what that was like and the journey.

Carol Kabaale (11:52)

Yeah.

Of course.

Yeah.

my gosh,

I think to go back to that time, was the most exciting time, but it was definitely filled with fear. It was definitely filled with uncertainty. It was my first proper job. I was an adult star, I a job, it was great. I think because of how I was raised and I was a big people pleaser back then, I still sort of am, but with my own boundaries, people please with the people I choose to people please with, if that makes sense.

Rosie (12:19)

Mm.

Alright. Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Right, right, yeah. I get it.

Carol Kabaale (12:41)

You know, the people who have earned that special level of love from me, I got you. I'm gonna give you all of it. Other people, no. You don't get that. But back then I was a big people pleaser and I really, whenever anything was given to me because there was a corporate environment, it would be like, Carol will do it. Carol will do it. And I was like, okay, yes. Yes, yes. I never said no. Ever, ever said no. I was not a...

Rosie (12:46)

Huh.

Mmm.

you

Carol Kabaale (13:08)

word in my vocabulary back then. was like, how dare I say no? know, these people are paying me to be here. They're giving me a job. Like, wow, how cool. Like I need to make this work. Like, you know? So I kept justifying the reasons for not saying no and normalizing the environment that I was in. But truly anybody else walking past could have seen that this was a sinking ship and I was pretending like it was not.

Rosie (13:12)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (13:37)

I was the only one who couldn't see it. You know, you know that story, the Emperor's new clothes, where the Emperor wears, is not wearing anything and everybody pretends they can see the lovely garments? It was me. I was the Emperor. I was walking around butt naked. Everybody could see it. Except for me. That's what was happening. That being said, I will say there were some lovely human connections that I made during that time. It wasn't all bad. The human connections were great.

Rosie (13:42)

Yeah.

Shit.

you

Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (14:05)

The actual work and capacity was bad. The me needing to prove myself was bad. And it comes from that of like, I don't want to disappoint people. I don't want to like lose this opportunity. I want to do the best. I want to move up in the world. And with that, I just became so burnt out. I was exhausted. I was dying. Literally like mentally I was dying because I was living past everything that was important to me. Anything that I valued, I was living past it.

I was missing holidays and Christmas and times with friends. I was working on Saturdays. I was working till like seven, eight o'clock at night. And yet I got to the office at like six in the morning. You know? It was just awful. But I thought if I can just survive it, if I can just survive it, I can get to the next step. I can just get a promotion. I can just move into a little bit of a leadership role. I can just, I can just, I can just. So again, I was justifying the terribleness of it all.

Rosie (14:37)

you

Wow, wow.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (15:05)

luckily for me, yes, luckily for me. there was this guy I was dating for like nine years and he happens to be my husband now and he proposed to me and I, mean, it took him nine years. Like I always joke. I think he wanted my blood type or something. don't know. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's nine years. He had better be sure at that point. Like what else do you want? The kidney? I'm not sure. Anyway.

Rosie (15:24)

He wanted to make sure he was short, yeah.

Carol Kabaale (15:35)

So this guy proposes to me and that's really when it hit me if I'm quite honest because I call it in lots of movies they like to do this where the protagonist like their whole life flashes before them and they have like they kind of stop and it's like like this montage of things happening right that's exactly what happened Rosie exact I cannot kid you not I saw my entire life in that moment and I saw it the way I was living and it was

Rosie (15:48)

Yeah, yeah.

Wow.

Carol Kabaale (16:03)

not fetching my littles from school. It was not being around for them. It was being the kind of wife that got home at like seven or eight o'clock at night. It was living past my husband. It was having two days a week to connect with someone that you're meant to spend your whole life with. Two days, a Saturday and a Sunday. And then it all hit me so much and I was like, no, absolutely not. This cannot be it. There must be more.

Rosie (16:19)

you

Carol Kabaale (16:32)

And in that moment, I didn't know it back then what I would do, but I knew that I wanted a lifestyle where I had choice, a lifestyle where I had the choice to choose and choose something that was good for me. I didn't know yet what it was going to be, but I knew that it needed choice. I also saw that the path that I was on, although a great career, I mean, nothing wrong with people who work with hospitality or corporate, like if it's for you, it's for you. Great stuff. I just knew.

Rosie (16:39)

Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (17:01)

that for me to get to the level of freedom and choice that I wanted, I would have had to be in my 40s, in my 50s, and by then it's too late. I don't want to take selfies on a beach at 50. I want to take selfies on a beach now. I want to go, you know, exploring and hiking now. I want to like live now. I don't want to live in my 70s where my body physically won't allow me to do those things. I just have to like...

Rosie (17:09)

Wow. Yeah.

Yeah.

you

Carol Kabaale (17:30)

watch other people do it. How sad. So yeah, just didn't want it. I just didn't want it. I don't look like a rebel, but secretly, it's like I say to people, I'm not really a rebel. I just like nice things. Is that too hard to ask for? Just like nice things. Why not?

Rosie (17:32)

Hmm. Hmm. But that's the norm!

I hear you. I hear you.

Right. Right. Yeah. So you had this moment, your husband proposed, your life flashed before your eyes. You're going, my God, like there has to be more. This isn't who I want to be. But you're working in hospitality. Sounds like you had no boundaries, constantly working, saying yes to everybody, underpaid, overworked. But now you're running an agency.

Carol Kabaale (17:58)

Yeah. Yeah.

You

Yes.

Rosie (18:21)

a marketing agency. you know, you're the CEO, you're doing your thing, right? How did you get there? Like, that's quite a gap.

Carol Kabaale (18:31)

That is got a gap. How I got there is again, I went down a kind of a traditional route. I thought, okay, well, I need to get a certification. No one's going to listen to me if I don't have a piece of paper that says I can do it. And, you know, actually I've learned that being an entrepreneur, you don't need a piece of paper. You just need to do what you say you need to do really well. If you can do what you say you're going to do really well, you don't need a piece of paper. I didn't know that back then, but it's nice that I went.

Rosie (18:41)

Right.

Yep. Yep. Yep.

Agreed.

Carol Kabaale (19:01)

and got a piece of paper because in that I also, I just felt like I needed to learn it before I could do it. It's one of my values. just, it felt out of integrity for me to just be like, I can do this, but I have no notion of doing it. Like that's just not part of who I am. So I went and I did a course on, first I did one on like social media and I learned about it.

Rosie (19:03)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (19:26)

The part that really fascinated me was the data driven decisions that were being made when you did paid ads or paid marketing. And I was like, this is so cool. You're not just making decisions on, know, the client has this thought, so let's execute this campaign or, they think this, so let's do it. It's like the data is telling you what to do. It's like, this is what your audience wants. Let's create more. This is what they don't want.

let's not show it to them again. And that felt like so tangible and something that I could really help people with. I was like, yes, let us do that. So again, I went and got another piece of paper that gave me a certification for to be a Mesa certified ad specialist. And with that, I first started, you know, if anybody's listening, I went and I looked at people in my community and I said, hey, I just got this piece of paper. I noticed that you have a business.

Rosie (19:58)

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Carol Kabaale (20:21)

I would love for you to be my practice client. And I was very open and I was very transparent. I said, I've never done this before. I followed a course of course, and I can take what I've learned there. And if you are happy for us to learn together, we can do that. And my first five clients were all people that I was very transparent with. And I told them, hey, you're my fifth client. You're my third client. You're my second client. That being said, don't think I didn't charge them. I charged them. But I also because...

Rosie (20:24)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

awesome. Yeah.

Yeah.

But that was my next question. Yeah. Good. Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (20:52)

I did charge them, but I did, I was very honest with them to let them know that, listen, I'm learning as I'm doing. So this is not going to be smooth. I mean, I'm going to try, but it's not going to be smooth. So that it wasn't a false representation of myself. And I really had fun with it because I got to do many businesses. Like now I work strategically only with like kind of co-chairs of people in like that learning education kind of space. But before that,

Rosie (21:00)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (21:21)

I had people who was, had a lady who was a lash tech, loved her. I had a person who was a personal trainer, loved her, great results as well. Like we had so much, a lady who did hair extensions, also loved her. But I did start finding things that I loved. One, I noticed very quickly I loved working with women. I just had a good vibe and a good rapport and I was like, so much easier. Sometimes with men, it was a little bit challenging and I feel...

Rosie (21:36)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (21:49)

that the challenging came from a place. again, if there's any men listening, not, this is not personal, don't take it personal. sometimes the men that I encountered felt like they needed to show me that they were in charge. They needed to express that and be dominating and be all encompassing. Like, this is how we're going to do things. And I don't resonate well with that. It's like, no, I don't want to work with this.

Rosie (22:01)

Mmm. Yeah.

Nah, yeah.

No thank you.

Carol Kabaale (22:17)

But it was still very professional and it was still like, you we got the job done, but I could definitely sense that it wasn't the same experience as when I worked with women. So very quickly, that's how I started to understand my ideal client and who I wanted to work with. And then more obstacles came like, you know, scaling and taking too much on in the beginning. In the beginning, those fears that we spoke about again, those boundaries, they crept up.

Rosie (22:25)

Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm.

yeah.

Hmm.

Carol Kabaale (22:47)

because now I knew I could get good results. So once again, I wanted to give everybody good results. Everybody who came, I said, yes. It was the worst.

Rosie (22:54)

yeah. I'm nodding and I'm going, cause I relate. Been there.

Carol Kabaale (23:01)

Yeah, and I mean, we've all been there. I mean, whether you're an entrepreneur or not, you've all been there when you've taken something on and you're just like, my gosh, how did I get here? I've got so many deadlines and I don't even know where to start. And you're just like spinning. So the big next wake up call came from me when I got my first charge back. I remember like it was yesterday. don't even like my phone was there. I dinged and it said negative.

Rosie (23:25)

Mm-mm.

Carol Kabaale (23:31)

$500 PayPal. And I was like, what do you mean negative? What do you mean negative? So what I didn't know back then is that if your account is on zero on PayPal, because obviously you've taken your money out of it, and then you have a charge back, they'll just take, they'll just put you in the negative. And like, until you put that money back, you can't use that account. And I was like, what?

Rosie (23:38)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mmm.

wow.

Carol Kabaale (24:01)

And then funny enough, I had to actually go and prove to PayPal because this is not a PayPal rant, but I had to prove to them that I've actually done the work and that this lady had just decided, you know, she's going to charge back and give me the thing. And then I was actually given the money, but that's also where I learned other boundaries. Like, okay, we just can't say yes to everyone. We need to have stronger contracts. We need to have periods in place. So I definitely learned.

Rosie (24:01)

Yeah.

Alright. Yes.

Carol Kabaale (24:30)

as I was doing and every knock, although it was hard and it felt like it pushed me. Yeah. It pushed me.

Rosie (24:37)

Yeah. Yeah. do you deal with those knockbacks? I feel like it's, it's just comes hand in hand with entrepreneurship. Stuff goes wrong all the time. There's good stuff, but stuff goes wrong all the time. How, how do you deal with it?

Carol Kabaale (24:49)

Hmm

Yeah.

I very much try to not make mountains out of molehills. I also try to be very purposeful with my interactions. I used to be the kind of person who would wake up in the morning, check my phone, and then my anxiety level would already peak because I would see all that I have to do. I would see a bad email. I would see a client freaking out about something or they're freaking out. But in my mind, I know it's like,

Rosie (25:04)

Yeah, okay.

Mm-mm.

Carol Kabaale (25:28)

It's not a big deal. Once I explain it to them, they're going to be fine. But it's that initial shock of like seeing the that gets you, right? And then you sit with that feeling the whole day and it's like, my word. So now I'm very strategic it's like I prep myself for bad news. It's like, I play the same with myself where I don't have my emails open the whole day. Just fun fact. I don't have a tab with it.

Rosie (25:34)

Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah, right.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (25:56)

I will have it open and check it at strategic times and be like, okay, this time I'm taking it, this time I'm checking it so that I am not constantly being bombarded with when something goes wrong. I'm choosing, this is my problem solving time. This is the time I'm going to take to see if there's a problem and go there. I have clients on Slack. I don't have Slack notifications. I purposely don't have Slack notifications because I have to go in there to see what's happening.

Rosie (26:00)

Okay.

Mmm.

you

Carol Kabaale (26:26)

And that's a little less of a blow. Maybe it's just me, but that little red notification thing, it is the worst because there's so much unknown behind that message. got to a stage, Rosie, this is a real thing. Like I don't even think I've ever shared this with anyone, but there was a time I was so fearful at what was at the end of a message that I would say to my husband, this client has messaged me. Please read it.

Rosie (26:34)

Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (26:55)

Don't read it out loud, just read it and then let me know, is it good? Is it bad? Is it okay? Because I physically just couldn't. I was like, if I take one more blow today, I'm done. I'm going to have to sit like a starfish on the floor and then no one's going to get any help from me. You know? little things like that helped me. And he'd be like, no, it's not that bad. They're just asking for normal stuff. And then I'd be like, okay, great.

Rosie (26:55)

my goodness.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (27:22)

then I'd read it. And to get yourself to that point, imagine all that like my body must have taken that I was like fearful of that. So I'm not new to those feelings. I've just had to learn how to cope with them and find little things that help me. I'm also, I do lots of things to trick my brain that we're having a good time. I saw this on, is this book called? It will come to me in a sec.

Rosie (27:33)

Mm-hmm.

right.

Carol Kabaale (27:52)

But basically it's like each room has a purpose and in that purpose you do only that thing, but you can also trick yourself that you're having a great time. So

Rosie (28:03)

I was doing some sums the other day and can you believe that it costs me $2,760 every year to keep this podcast going? I was a bit shocked by that figure. So if you're enjoying this episode, can I ask if you'd send me a tip? There's a link in the description. It'll help me cover these costs. And you know why that's important? Because then I can focus on the stuff that matters like finding awesome guests and producing awesome episodes for you guys.

If you could help out, would mean the world to

Rosie (28:35)

and if not that's okay, I appreciate you watching, make sure you're following and share it with a friend.

Rosie (28:41)

Let's get back to the episode.

Carol Kabaale (28:45)

I always have like perfume on my desk. I always have like hand lotion on my desk. And when I'm in stressful situations or I'm having difficult situations with clients, I may like before the call spray.

Rosie (28:47)

Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (28:58)

so that I can smell something sweet and nice and like it calms me. I may a little bit of the hand lotion and like while we talk, I may go like this, because it helps me to feel like.

Rosie (29:11)

Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (29:13)

It's like I'm centering myself despite of what is happening.

these little things I've had to do to trick my brain that we are safe. We are fine. It's not that. Yeah.

Rosie (29:23)

Yeah. Yeah, because it is a feeling of you don't feel safe. That's exactly what it is, which is illogical really. We're safe, but we feel very unsafe and it is like going into the fight or flight. And I love your, you know, your simple tricks there, like spraying some perfume, rubbing some lotion in your hands. I might have to try that out.

Carol Kabaale (29:34)

We're fine.

Mm-hmm.

Rosie (29:52)

because I get really worked up about this stuff. If I'm anticipating an email, like an important email, and I see it come through, I feel my heart racing. Sometimes I'll avoid opening it, sometimes for days. And then I open it and usually it's okay. But it's just the stress I put my body through. So I'm like, this is not helping anybody.

Carol Kabaale (29:58)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yes, it is me too.

Yes,

Rosie (30:16)

it's kind of validating to hear that you still have fear, but you have learned how to manage it. That gives me hope.

Carol Kabaale (30:23)

no, definitely. You have to learn how to live with it. I don't think it's ever going to go away because I think like how we began at the... like I do think it's in my DNA. I think for me to get it out of here, I don't know, we'd have to get into some really woo stuff and some people are to have to talk to some people upstairs or in other realms or I don't know where and do some things. But until I get that, it's still here. So it's a part of me.

Rosie (30:47)

Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (30:50)

And one thing I remember journaling, and this hit me really hard when I journaled it, and I said, I'm thankful for all the carols that have come before me that have made this version of me.

Rosie (30:59)

Mmm. Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (31:03)

Because that person who lives in that fear is part of me. She's helped me be brave. It's because I know fear that I know there's a better thing. That I know I don't want to be there, that I have to search for something, that I have to fight for something else. So I'm still thankful for that version of me. You know, she's brought me here.

Rosie (31:25)

Yeah. Look at her with kindness, right? Don't hate on, don't hate on past Carol. Yeah. Right.

Carol Kabaale (31:29)

Really? It's not her fault that she was going through it, huh?

She was doing the best with what she had, Giving yourself that grace to be like, listen, it sucks, it's hard, but we're going to get through it. That's all I try to That's all really, I think all of us try to do as humans.

Rosie (31:51)

So tell us about your first marketing agency.

And how that went, did it go according to plan? How did you, like, how did you even start that? That's a pretty, that's a huge thing to do from employee to agency. So tell us how it actually went. We've touched on the fear, but there's a bit of a story here.

Carol Kabaale (31:56)

And that one was fun.

Yeah!

Yes, so like I said, I got some practice clients. And those are the people I had. My first agency was called Best Ads and it was really, it's still like my legal business name, but now I'm trading as something else. But that is my first little baby. And in that agency, I did everything. I everything. wrote the, this was before ChatGPT, this was before templates.

Rosie (32:22)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah

Carol Kabaale (32:39)

This was before like you have to Google and like scrub the internet for assistance. Like this was pre that time. And I was busy doing it all. was the graphic designer. I was the web developer. I was the SEO person. I was the copywriter. I was the VA. I was the owner. I was the marketer. All the roles they led here. So although I could do everything, I learned very quickly that I shouldn't do everything.

Rosie (32:45)

Mm-hmm.

Wow. Yeah.

Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (33:06)

So my first agency, because I did everything, we had very high highs and very low lows. We had people who are getting amazing results because I could give them all my attention and then people who are falling through the cracks. That's just the reality of it. And enter when we start to get to the beginning of when we see that the pandemic is like, okay, here it's going to really hit. So I did that agency for about like a year and half by myself.

Rosie (33:17)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (33:34)

And then I worked with my business partner, my ex-business partner. And she is also a lovely lady we had the same issues. She was doing everything on her own. I was doing everything on my own. So then we were like, what if we did everything on our own, but together?

Rosie (33:49)

together.

Carol Kabaale (33:51)

And we were like, yeah, let's do it together. So it was fun. We quickly found our rhythm. She enjoyed doing more of the sales. I enjoyed doing more of the backend stuff. So I, with my role, I got to build our team out. I did a lot of the hiring. I did a lot of SOPs, payments, lot of the backend things that you don't see delivering, giving the deliverables to the clients and making sure the team was doing it properly. So that was all me.

her role is more, again, networking, finding opportunities for us and like sales. That's her was all great. mean, we had some really high highs. This was the first time we hit the magical 5k months. This was the first time we were like, yay. And like, you know, we each hit 5k. So we were like, we made even more. We had 10k and we were like, So great.

Rosie (34:33)

Yeah, yeah.

Right. Yep.

Carol Kabaale (34:42)

we had people that we had paid, had employees at this point. So it really started to feel like a real business. And I'm not saying my first agency wasn't, but this one just felt like, okay, okay, she's a big girl. She knows what she's in that we really niche down and we focused. She also had a lot of clients that came from coaching and I had expressed how I enjoyed working with women. So that's how we stepped into that niche.

Rosie (34:49)

Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (35:08)

We built our agency, it was great, it was lovely, until we both decided that we had very different dreams or very different outlooks on life. It was weird because before, when we started, we thought that our differences would help each other, but it's like we were both pulling at different ends. So she wanted to go this way ultimately, and I wanted to go this way ultimately.

Rosie (35:17)

Hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (35:37)

And I think a little bit of me was happy to support her dream. So I was like, okay, okay, let's go. Okay, let's go. Until I knew I don't want to do that. What you're offering is not what I want. And to put it very simply, she had a very big dream, which I mean, I know she's gonna, I know, I know in my heart she's gonna reach this. She wants to make like a million dollars and create this massive like agency and like big company and thing.

Rosie (35:46)

Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (36:06)

I don't want that. I wanted something that gives you enough to have the freedom of choice that I wanted to have my little, to have my husband, to maybe we go on vacation once or twice a year. I don't need a million dollar thing. I don't need 500 employees. Like that's not going to bring me joy. Like, no, I want time. That's what I want. So ultimately we had to part ways, but we parted okay-ish.

Rosie (36:07)

Right.

Mmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (36:36)

So that was good. And then it really hurt. because I was so attached to this actual business, I thought I failed. I really thought I failed Rosie. Because I went from, you know, making comfortable income every single month to having employees, to, you know, being very busy because I was always doing something in the back end, to everything went away.

Rosie (36:45)

Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (37:04)

just disappear. And it was like there was nothing. Absolutely nothing. And I felt like I was so broken. I felt like I didn't have purpose. I felt like my whole identity was that business, was this business owner and who I am mine are without it. And I just, it sucked. It really sucked because it brought me all the way back.

Rosie (37:20)

you

Carol Kabaale (37:34)

to when I started in my corporate days, was like, my gosh, I'm right back where I was. Like I'm back to being this scared little person. And it was really hard. It was really hard. I started to go to therapy again and work through it. That was a tool that I used to get me out of But there were some very dark days. There were days I was just like, I would just not sleep. didn't, like my mind, I now know.

Rosie (37:41)

Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (38:01)

Kind of why I listened to this tapping meditation the one day and it said, trying to quiet a racing mind. And it said, do you realize that your mind is racing because it's trying to help you? It's trying to solve these problems for you so that you don't have to do that tomorrow. It's trying to be like, if we could just solve them now, tomorrow you'd be amazing or later on you'd be, you'd have so much peace. But what your mind doesn't realize that if it doesn't slow down,

Rosie (38:19)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Carol Kabaale (38:30)

We're just doing this. We're just going, going, going, going, going, going, going. it doesn't stop. So I didn't have the clarity back then to know that it was my mind trying to help me, but I just couldn't stop. I just felt awful. And one of the things that my therapist said I should try is she said, you need to do something practical. You need to like get your hands dirty and do something practical. Now, Rosie, between you and me, I'm a liker of things.

Rosie (38:33)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

You

Carol Kabaale (39:00)

I am doing something practical. What do you mean doing something practical? Girl, no. Do you see these nails? Practical. I think not this thing. No. But she said, Carol, you have to do something practical. You have to do something for yourself. So I said, okay, fine. I'm doing something practical. And I took our spare room, which is now my office. And it had been, I had been playing with the idea of making it an office or keeping it as a spare room. And I said, no, I'm going to make an office.

Rosie (39:18)

Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (39:29)

Someone wants to come visit me and go stay at a hotel? No. Like, no. Why do you have to stay here? No. And that was the first little thing I did. The second thing that I did is I painted the whole room by myself. Now it might not seem like a big deal, but I had to like sand stuff and I had to pick stuff and I had to go find the color and learn about oil paints and watercolor based and I don't know what other things that were there. It very intimidating if I'm quite honest.

Rosie (39:33)

Yeah

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You

Carol Kabaale (39:58)

I used the drill for the first time. It was like pretty cool stuff to me. And I built my little safe space. You know, I put up all these posters by myself and I found the sayings that I wanted. I picked out all the furniture, every single piece of furniture in this room I picked up and I put it in here intentionally by myself. And at the end of it, I realized what she was doing. She was helping me to see that I can build things again.

Rosie (40:01)

Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (40:30)

And it was so humbling when I looked back and I saw I created this. I didn't need anybody's help. I also became very codependent on this person, if I'm quite honest, like my old business partner. And I just felt like I can't do this by myself. I mean, I wasn't doing it well the first time. So now that again, I don't have help, how can I do this? But if I was capable of creating this tiny little space, I could do anything. And so we built agency number three.

Rosie (40:42)

Mm-mm.

Yeah.

tell us about agency number three, yeah.

Carol Kabaale (41:03)

Agency number three is my... It's still going. mean, look, the other three, the other two, they never really stopped. I just think they were like versions, like they were better iterations. I wouldn't ever call the other two failures because they didn't fail. One became bigger and the other one became something else.

Rosie (41:04)

It's still going, so that's good.

Right, Mmm, mm, mm.

No.

Carol Kabaale (41:31)

So I don't think it's a failure. That also took me a while, but I don't think it's think it's just iterations of it. That being said, this agency is quite fun because it's taken the best of everything I've learned. It has the best people like that I've met along the way in terms of team members helping to support our mission to move forward. And honestly, I'm very picky now.

I have the best clients because I choose the best people to work with because it's people who like me, they're in purpose, they're on a mission. We're here to make it work. And I love that. I love that I can say like, I never look at my client calls and go, my gosh, it's Rosie. girl, this like, this flippin' lady, she's just gonna come at me. No, I never have that. And I've purposely done that because I love my clients.

Rosie (42:17)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Carol Kabaale (42:26)

They may not know, or maybe they might think it's weird, but I really care for them. I care for their success and I care for if they do. The other people, I'm sure I cared to some degree, but now I just feel very invested and I just want good people and good energy. And that's really been important to me. And what I've learned about everything that we've done is that it's not only one thing that makes you successful.

Rosie (42:43)

Hmm.

Carol Kabaale (42:53)

we're in the other agencies, it was very focused on how are the ads doing? What are the numbers doing? This version, I'm very focused on how are you doing as a business owner? How can I support you and how can ads amplify that? Because ads only bring people in, they bring in the traffic, right? They put you in front of the right people, but everything else has to work, right? Like what is your click-through rate?

Rosie (43:04)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (43:20)

What is your open rate in emails? Are people showing up to your events? Are people becoming followers? Are they liking your content? So it's important to just see that it's not just a lead, it's a person that we need to take on this journey. And that's what I love so much about it. That's why I feel so happy about it all the time.

Rosie (43:32)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah, you sound very values and purpose driven. And it's like you've found this perfect recipe in the agency now. And it also sounds like you're a lot better at boundaries because you are very fussy on what clients you take on.

Carol Kabaale (43:49)

Yeah.

yeah. I learned that if I'm not fussy about the clients that I take, I cannot give you my best. I'm actually doing you a disservice by taking you on a client and only giving you 70 % of myself when I know I should be giving you a hundred, but I physically cannot because you give me the irks.

Rosie (44:20)

I feel that. So what's your advice to early stage solopreneurs, business owners? Like there's this very real pressure of you need money. And so the tendency is to say yes to every single opportunity that comes across your desk. Do you think it's necessary to do that or can you be more intentional and still make money

Carol Kabaale (44:31)

Mm-hmm.

Great.

I would say give yourself a timeline. For the next three months, I'm gonna say yes to everything. For the next year, I'm gonna say yes to everything. Because you don't know what you don't know. By closing yourself off and thinking, this is precisely where I need to be, there is a whole world of things in entrepreneurship that you're missing out. How my service has evolved from one thing to be so holistic only happened because I pushed myself to be in those conversations.

Rosie (44:46)

Okay.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (45:11)

to try that thing out, to learn about something else. I like I said, I started off with one certification. I'm like collecting them as we go. I'm like, they're like Pokemons at this point. You know, like, and I catch them all. So it's important to figure out what you like and what fits in, but you'll only know that by trying, right? But give yourself that boundary of, okay, I'm going to try and I'm going to say yes to everything that comes my way for the next six months. Then after that, I'm going to reevaluate.

Rosie (45:21)

Yeah. I love that.

Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (45:41)

and say, hey, I didn't like working with that type of client. I didn't like doing that type of service. That service, although I love it, it is time consuming and it doesn't give me much money. So I'm not going to do that again. You know? And then one thing I'm going to give everyone permission here so that you can keep it in your pocket. This is permission you can keep in your pocket for wherever you need it.

Rosie (45:53)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Permission slip, yep.

Carol Kabaale (46:07)

is your Get Out Of Jail Free card permission slip as signed by Carol. Be sure to use it whenever you need it. It is okay to say no. That's the first thing I'm going to give you permission to do. And the second one, it's okay to let go of people who don't need to be in your life, whether they're a client or whether they're something else. Because I'm telling you now, there's going to be people who are going to have a lot to say about the decisions you've made.

Rosie (46:35)

Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (46:35)

And as one of my favorite person RuPaul said, if they're not paying your bills, don't pay those bitches no mind.

Rosie (46:41)

Letting go of people is like, that's been a big part of my journey and I find it so hard.

But I also think it's necessary. Do you have a magic wand? Like how do we, how do we make it easier? Can it be easier? how, how do we navigate this? Because I think we hold ourselves back if we don't learn how to let go and move on when it's time.

Carol Kabaale (46:52)

Hmm

I think with that, comes again down to our new favorite word, boundaries. I learned that I was being a better friend to some people than they were being to me. And I'm not saying it's tit for tat, but if I'm the friend that's constantly calling you, Rosie, I'm the friend that's constantly like, good morning. I'm the friend who's like, Hey, do you want to have a coffee? And you are never the one who initiates. We need to set a boundary here. I'm going to wait.

Rosie (47:14)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Carol Kabaale (47:39)

started doing that with some people in my life and I was like, I'm not going to message this person until they message me.

Because if we are truly friends, and again, you may think, Carol, that's a bit childish. That's okay. I'm happy with the way I'm doing it. But if we are truly friends, as you say, we're friends and we talk every other day, you should feel some kind of weirdness when I haven't texted you. You should be like, where is Carol? What's happening? okay, maybe she needs some space. But after you've given me my space, this should still be something like, I have not spoken to this girl in a month. Is she alive?

Rosie (48:14)

Hmm

Carol Kabaale (48:16)

But if you find that you do not miss me and I find that you have not texted me, why are we doing this? I get it. Life happens. I have friends, like, for example, my friend Michelle, we just have this friendship where like, we will not talk for like three months and then she'll call me. And then we talk for like four hours. I kid you not, for like four hours. And we catch up on everything. And it's like, okay, cool. I'll see you in another three months. But we know.

Rosie (48:24)

Yeah.

Yeah

Yeah,

Carol Kabaale (48:44)

Right? We know the expectation. You know the level of friendship. Some people, they're your friends because you're keeping that friendship going, not because they're actually your friends.

Rosie (48:55)

Yeah, it's a hard one. What if someone says, but Carol, I can't. I've known them since I was a kid. Or their family.

Carol Kabaale (49:07)

I mean, look at my mom. My mom's a narcissist. I still love her. She's like, like I said, she has days where she's like the best mom to me. And I love her truly. And we have great conversation, but there's days where she crosses the boundary and she pushes me and I'm like, Hey, I no longer want to participate in this conversation. I'm going to go now. And I hung up the phone and that's the end of that conversation because I need to protect my peace.

Rosie (49:29)

Hmm.

Yes, protect your peace. And part of how you do that is boundaries. I feel like that's a theme in this conversation. Boundaries!

Carol Kabaale (49:42)

mean it is hard. Look, some people will always have a soft spot for them. I'm not saying like bandage them and throw them out. Of course they've played a role in your life. Of course it's going to be a bit of a loss. But understand that there's a lot of flippin' people in this planet. Okay? Let's just be the next person. don't worry, might be someone better.

Rosie (49:46)

Right. Right.

Yeah, there's a lot of people and also we've got limited time. Why waste it on someone who's... sucking energy out. You know those people who they just kind of take.

Carol Kabaale (50:06)

in

You have a conversation with them and you feel so drained after that conversation. That's because they've like ripped and they funny enough, they're always like so chipper and great. Why? Because they've gone and poured all their baggage onto you and now you're there like, my gosh, when is someone going to pour into my cup? When is someone to take this from me? They never do that. So interesting.

Rosie (50:21)

huh.

Yes!

Yeah.

relationships are hard. Boundaries are hard. But I want to ask you the famous question on this podcast. It has been tradition.

What does freedom mean to you?

Carol Kabaale (50:54)

choice. Freedom means choice. It means the ability to choose. reason I value that so much is I came from, so my family is originally from Cuba, which is a socialist country, if you didn't there are not great. I just knew I never wanted to go back to that. I never wanted to not have choice.

Rosie (50:55)

Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (51:17)

now that I live like in South Africa and I've been honestly, I know I've been very privileged for my parents to give me the life they gave me for me to grow up the way I did the type of schools I went to. And that all allowed me to have choice and allowed me to choose. Do I go to university? Do I not go to university? It was never a, has to work for me. And I

Rosie (51:39)

Right, right.

Carol Kabaale (51:41)

want to continue living my life like that. For me, freedom is definitely choice. When I got that job and I felt like so much burden, it was because I felt I didn't have choice. It was because I felt like I can't leave yet. If I leave here, I'm a failure. I don't have money. I'm going to have to go back home. I'm going to have to tell these people who have just put me through university and so graciously paid for my studies that I'm like, well, I don't know. I didn't really feel nice. I don't know about your parents.

Rosie (51:50)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (52:11)

But my parents are not the lead with your feelings parents. You can't tell them, I feel burnt out. You can't tell them that. They're like, drink a coffee, it'll be fine. You don't have energy, drink a coffee. You know, they're like, it's not how it works for them. So choice is definitely the thing I value the most and choice allows you to do so much. Such a freedom.

Rosie (52:15)

Ha ha ha ha ha

Yeah. Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (52:40)

What a luxury to get to choose. Wow, how lucky we are.

Rosie (52:44)

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to, I want to go back to this. When you were in the hospitality job, you just said you felt like you had no choice. So how, how did you choose to quit when you felt like you had no choice? How did you get through that?

Carol Kabaale (52:52)

Mm.

Yeah.

I'm going tell you something, which once again, only my husband and I know. So you're deep today, Rosie. When I had that flashback, right, of the whole world passing in front of me and I just knew I just couldn't go down this road again, I made a choice that I was going to quit. And I didn't tell anyone. I didn't even tell my husband, my fiance at the time.

Rosie (53:17)

Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (53:28)

wrote my resignation letter. Actually, I didn't even write it. I Googled resignation letters that are polite. Sorry, Rachel, but that was me. And I sent it. And I remember it so clearly after I sent it, the lady in HR, she phoned me and she said, are you sure? And I said, yes. And she said, you know, I'm going to have to tell your manager. And my manager was like attached to me. It was like,

Rosie (53:50)

Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (53:57)

I was like her child, but also her employee, but also like the best employee. Like, like she, like she was very attached to me. And now in a weird way, but also in a nice way, like she was a nice person, but it was like a lot. Like it felt like I was letting her down. She's like, you know, I'm going to have to tell so and so. And I was like, I know. And her office, like my manager's office was in front of me and like my desk was here. And it was like, I could see the internet waves where

Rosie (54:00)

you

Yeah.

Yup. Yeeeahhh.

Carol Kabaale (54:26)

HR's office was on this side and HR sent the message and the email went like this into my manager's office and I could see her face when she saw it. was like, and then she looked at me and then she looked at it again. She looked at me and she picked up the phone and she was like, Carol, can you just come to my office? I was like, yeah, no, sure, sure, sure. And I knew and I just said, and I just said, you know what? I...

Rosie (54:28)

Mm-hmm.

Oof.

Carol Kabaale (54:53)

I value everything you guys have done for me and you guys have really given me so much space to learn and so much space to be independent and take on things, but I can't do this. And then I said to my fiance that, by the way, again, I lied. These people are sending me to do a course and they said I could do it from home. So I'm going to not go home to my mom. I'm just going to go and live with you while I do it so that I can be in a better space and a better environment, you know, so I could just get it done.

He didn't think anything out of it until he was like, when are you going back to work? Like, how long is this course? I'm like, no, I'm still doing it. I'm still figuring it out. I'm still doing the course. then I started getting practice clients. He's like, is this part of the course? Is this part of your hospitality? Are they asking you to like hire people for them? Like, what are they doing? It's weird. And I was like, yeah, yeah, it's all part of the course.

Rosie (55:38)

Yeah, what's going on?

Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (55:48)

Until one day I had to give back the company laptop for my last day.

Rosie (55:52)

Ha!

Carol Kabaale (55:57)

And Joel was like, let me guess it's part of the course. And I was like, well, I think we should talk. And that's when I told him the truth. And my husband's very analytical. He's an engineer. So he came at it as like, okay, so what's the plan? What are you doing? What does the next five months look like? do the next three months look like? And I'm very like.

Rosie (56:02)

is on to you.

Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (56:23)

I'm doing, doing something like, I don't know, but I'm doing it. And because I hadn't thought that far, it felt very overwhelming. It felt like I actually told him, please do not tell anyone because if you had this reaction, what's everybody else going to say? So that's really why I felt so trapped in that job. I felt like I didn't have choice and I just did it anyway, because I knew, like you said, tomorrow is not promised.

Rosie (56:24)

Yeah, right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (56:52)

It's so, we, sometimes I think of us humans, we're very silly creatures. Like we are in such delulu that we think we're gonna live for the next 20 years when literally your next breath is not promised.

But then again, you can't live in that state of like, you you're constantly going to die because that's not a way to live. also that knowing how fragile and how precious this gift is of life, I think pushed me to ultimately do it because I was like, I can't, literally can't.

Rosie (57:19)

Mmm.

Yeah. And that's something that's always on my mind. You know, I lost both of my parents before they hit retirement age. They worked hard, they saved their money, they were going to travel when they were tired, go around Australia, ride motorbikes. It's all taken. And that's just like, I might not live, I don't know how long I'm going to live. So I'm just going to enjoy. I'm not going to live in fear or at least try my best not to. I'm going to be very intentional with the decisions I make.

Carol Kabaale (57:38)

Hmm.

Do. Yeah. There you go.

Rosie (57:54)

and how I spend my time. When I'm feeling overwhelmed, it's like, well, okay, I've got a decision to make. Which one is gonna bring me closer to the kind of person I wanna be?

Carol Kabaale (58:03)

Facts on facts on facts. No, and I think, you know what, I think you who have actually lived some of my fears, like kudos to you. I think you are stronger than you know and stronger than you think. And again, this is Carol just giving you this in case you needed it, because I know you didn't, but just in case you can have some extra. No, no, no, I really.

Rosie (58:25)

You're make me cry.

Carol Kabaale (58:30)

Like this one of my favorite YouTubers always ends her videos saying, if no one has told you today, Rosie, you are enough. You are doing enough. And constantly, sometimes, and I just, I just need to say to myself, Carol, you're enough. You're doing enough. It is enough.

Rosie (58:47)

think we all need to hear that. Yeah. And on that note, Carol, you are enough. You are more than enough. You have been such an amazing guest. I've really enjoyed this conversation. It's been great. So glad I met you. It was just a few days ago and here we are. We've recorded an episode.

Carol Kabaale (58:59)

Thank you.

I

Rosie (59:10)

Like what?

Carol Kabaale (59:11)

love it. think this will be a very fun interview. Honestly, I haven't had so much fun like this in a while. Like, thank you. Thank you for opening the space for me. Thank you for reminding me of things I think I needed to hear. I appreciate it more than you know.

Rosie (59:23)

my pleasure. Thank you. Same back to you. And we will talk soon.