31: Searching for Belonging as an Asian-American Lesbian

[00:00:00] Welcome back to The Pursuit of Freedom podcast. I'm in my van, it's 8am already 27 degrees and

[00:00:08] very muggy. Joining me today though is Jen Chao. She is in America. I'm not America so she is in Japan

[00:00:16] and it's about four degrees, I think you said over there so I would love to swap

[00:00:22] up. But Jen you're an Asian American lesbian, you're living in Japan, you're an empowerment

[00:00:30] and joy coach and you help women reconnect with their true selves to create a life of freedom,

[00:00:36] joy and truth. You are preaching to the choir honestly, you sound amazing and thank you so

[00:00:43] much for joining me today. Thank you so much for having me here. I'm really excited. I love

[00:00:49] yeah, listening to just hearing how hard it is there. I'm like give me some of it. I want that

[00:00:54] sunshine. Yeah, I'd happily trade right now. Let's dive right into the deep questions because I

[00:01:01] think we've got a lot of important stuff to cover in our chat today that people are going to get

[00:01:06] a lot of value from and when we first met a theme that really came out for me was this sense of

[00:01:15] belonging and I think a lot of us in the LGBTQI plus community really struggle with

[00:01:27] finding a sense of belonging. And I know that in your culture, that's added another layer of complexity.

[00:01:36] So I'd love to hear from you, what has it been like from little Jen growing up?

[00:01:44] Did this sense of belonging was it there when you were little? Did it? How did this unfold?

[00:01:50] Oh, thank you so much for that question. It absolutely was not there when I was a kid.

[00:01:56] I was born in Taiwan and I moved to America when I was two and right off the bat, I couldn't speak

[00:02:03] the language. My family couldn't really speak the language so I was an immigrant and I just remember

[00:02:11] being at school, it was really difficult for me. I was placed in ESL. I was kind of like ostracized

[00:02:18] that. I was taken out of the class sometimes and taken into a little classroom where a few other

[00:02:23] little students had to study English and it just felt you know it's just that ostracizing feeling

[00:02:28] that I got from a very young age and I remember being told you know, speak English, you're in

[00:02:35] America now you have to learn how to speak English. And then it was just okay so I have

[00:02:40] I think even now I internalize that as a trauma like it was being told you didn't belong.

[00:02:48] So that was the first sense of belonging that did not have. And then as I

[00:02:54] as I got older and I started to realize okay, I'm not the same as everybody else. I'm

[00:03:03] I think I might be attracted to women in my culture, a nation culture and back in those days it was

[00:03:09] so unspoken of and like no one I knew was in the community know at least nobody that I knew who

[00:03:16] looked like me. And so I had no one to really talk to. I never experienced any outward homophobia

[00:03:24] so that was that was very good but it was all just it just didn't exist. So I just felt like

[00:03:30] I didn't exist. My experiences didn't exist, I didn't exist, my feelings don't exist,

[00:03:36] so what was wrong with me? And so that was really difficult and growing up I just felt there was

[00:03:41] always something wrong with me and I didn't know what to do I just kind of thought well

[00:03:47] everywhere that I looked this was not the way to live this was not the way to feel. So I had to

[00:03:54] I have to be this certain way. I have to be the good daughter who gets married and has kids,

[00:03:59] has two kids they have to learn how to play piano yeah there's there's so many specifics of

[00:04:05] of things that people before me have done and that's that's just how I was supposed to live my life

[00:04:10] because that's you know that's what my parents did they came all the way to America to give me the

[00:04:15] education and all that stuff and how could I you know how could I disobey them and disgrace them

[00:04:21] or something like that. I got really really difficult to a point that I felt I I don't know if I

[00:04:27] want to live this life anymore and so I got to a point where yeah it got really bad and I decided

[00:04:36] you know what I got an opportunity to work in Japan I just for for the longest time I wanted to

[00:04:42] get out of America for me it's just America was very very it was like an enclosed space and

[00:04:48] is getting smaller and smaller. And so for that I applied for a job in Japan and I got it and I was

[00:04:55] like okay well you know what let me let me just let me just go overseas for a year or two and let me

[00:05:01] live my life who cares let me just go crazy and just live my life and then I'll come back and then

[00:05:08] I'll come back and I will be the good girl and I will live that life that you want me to live

[00:05:13] so I I left and I've been here ever since wow

[00:05:21] but now the being being overseas and being in a place where nobody knew who I was it was so

[00:05:28] freeing and and in Japan already because I was a foreigner I was already seen as somebody who didn't

[00:05:35] belong and I was and it wasn't like I tried to belong because I came in knowing that I didn't

[00:05:41] belong and in that helped me find my place of belonging. Yeah yeah say more about that so I think

[00:05:52] it was just you know ever since I was a kid and I lived in America and all that like I felt like I

[00:05:57] had I wanted to belong I really really wanted to belong here I wanted to belong amongst you

[00:06:02] know English speakers I wanted to belong with them among my friends I wanted to be normal but when

[00:06:08] I came to Japan and I was I was already not normal because I lived in a very very it's a little

[00:06:13] country countryside with nobody spoke English and right off the bat like yes I looked Asian but

[00:06:19] like you spoke to me I'm like I have no idea what the heck you're talking about. You hooked at me

[00:06:24] I was like this what and so I knew I knew I was gonna come in I didn't know the language so I thought

[00:06:30] whatever it doesn't matter knowing that I didn't belong I just had to I had to make my place of

[00:06:37] belonging I had to define my people yes I found a community of among my my co-workers who were

[00:06:45] other foreigners other English speakers but we all had such different lives and then I thought okay

[00:06:53] I'm not gonna find anything here really nobody was really you know in the LGBTQ QIA plus community

[00:07:00] but I thought okay it's all good let me let me let me find find people but then I started to realize

[00:07:08] because you know we're all expats and people leave I realized I need to find myself I knew

[00:07:17] for comfort because I was attaching a lot of my sense of belonging a lot of my happiness my acceptance

[00:07:28] and I wanted people to accept me a blah blah I was attaching so much of it to external people external

[00:07:34] forces external factors and they always left and it was always so hard for me to deal with that

[00:07:40] until I realized why like what like I need to find that peace within myself that acceptance within

[00:07:49] myself that happiness within myself I have to create that by myself and when I started to I finally

[00:07:55] I finally felt okay like I finally started to feel like I belong somewhere and it's not a place

[00:08:02] it's not a location that you feel that sense of belonging it's within yourself that you feel that

[00:08:06] sense of belonging once you feel it nothing nothing can shake you yeah and how different life must be now

[00:08:15] compared to when you were a kid and then you know growing up and then even when you made that

[00:08:21] decision to go to Japan and being there in the early days sounds like yeah that sense of belonging

[00:08:27] you were really trying to figure that out yeah and you had to look inside yeah yeah absolutely

[00:08:34] it's interesting isn't it the sense of belonging does come from within I truly believe that when we

[00:08:40] rely on others I don't know doesn't usually work well does it yeah because it's like it's a validation

[00:08:47] right you want people to validate you but you have no control over what they think and what they feel

[00:08:52] and how they'll react and it's always always so scary I was so scared that they would use whatever they

[00:08:59] you know use whatever they know about me against me but then now I'm like

[00:09:03] you can't because I love who I am I accept myself from who I am and so you can say whatever you want

[00:09:09] yeah sometimes I'll get like a little butt hurt but that is what it is it's your reaction to me it's

[00:09:14] not anything to do with me that was a very yeah it was a big learning right yeah so how did you

[00:09:22] get to that point like did you have someone guide you to do that in a work or did you just figure

[00:09:27] it out yourself how did you get here a lot of trial and error I can relate it took a long time

[00:09:34] it definitely took a long time and I want to say it had to do a lot with I was lucky I met someone who

[00:09:44] really accepted me for who I was in a way like yes so I was I had my sense of belonging I was

[00:09:51] getting getting close to like I think I was already on that path because I was feeling so much of

[00:09:56] this the hurt that I was getting with people leaving I did meet someone and my ex and she was very

[00:10:06] when she accepted me for who I was and I was like great great great but what I had learned was

[00:10:10] my reaction to her and learning to accept her helped me learn how to accept myself it was a very

[00:10:18] strange slow kind of sudden transformation I think I was not intending to like find a sense of

[00:10:27] belonging really it was like it was almost like indirect bonus from the relationship that I had with

[00:10:35] where she was very accepting of the parts that I really didn't like about myself and she kept

[00:10:42] telling me like it's fine the way you are and I'm like no it's not because I had a very strict idea

[00:10:46] of what was right and what was wrong and seeing her and my reactions to her I also had a lot

[00:10:52] of ideas of what was right and what was wrong and then we had we worked through a lot of that

[00:10:57] because we just argued like crazy but understanding like a person is who they are because of who

[00:11:03] they are like you just accept them and you love them for who they are and it was a very chaotic

[00:11:09] relationship to be honest but from that experience I realized how much acceptance can really transform

[00:11:19] something someone through the relationship that we had I think I had we had a lot of I had a

[00:11:26] lot of opportunities to really see how my reactions to her and how my acceptance of her quirks

[00:11:34] and her things that I at first did not see as good and I judged and I was like I don't like this

[00:11:39] part about you and blah blah I wanted to change I was not a really good person at the beginning

[00:11:45] but after I learned like you know people who they are and it's okay and just accept that

[00:11:50] and the relationship completely transformed and then I was like wait let me let me apply that

[00:11:57] to myself and let's see what that would be like and then it completely changed the way I saw life

[00:12:03] I saw myself the way I reacted to things I was just like you know what it's it is what she said

[00:12:10] I'm okay to it's okay that I feel this way it's okay that I have these quote unquote imperfection

[00:12:16] but they're me right and that makes me me I don't know it's it's I like my little quirks

[00:12:23] yeah every now and then I'm like oh I wish I didn't

[00:12:27] learning to love yourself is I don't know it's an ongoing journey for me but I think it's hard

[00:12:33] especially for for people in in our community where we've I mean we have so much

[00:12:39] so many messages from outside I mean it's changing now but there is still a lot of shame

[00:12:45] I don't a lot with Jim and I was okay yeah I was gonna bring that up because I think that's

[00:12:51] something most of us in the LGBTQI plus community have experienced this concept of shame

[00:12:59] and it sounds like you were becoming aware of your sexuality younger so what role did shame play

[00:13:07] there as you were figuring things out I think it was just it goes back to like I just thought

[00:13:15] there was something really wrong with me and if I tried hard enough I could somehow not

[00:13:22] pray the gay away because I'm not religious or anything but I really thought that if I

[00:13:28] if I worked hard enough I could just be normal the shame was just because there was no representation

[00:13:37] at all I mean back in those days right now days we have a lot of like a lot of people are open and

[00:13:42] there's a lot of talk and a lot of dialogue about this but back you know when I was a kid the only

[00:13:49] I think the biggest news with when like Angelina Jolie came out as bisexual and I was like oh wow

[00:13:55] like there's somebody who is who's kind of like me but you see there were no lesbians there were

[00:14:00] only bisexuals and I'm like so maybe that's what I am maybe maybe I like guys and girls right maybe

[00:14:07] that's maybe it's I don't know but she doesn't look like me and she's a celebrity she's allowed

[00:14:15] I'm just a little like Asian kid who lives in America I don't think I'm allowed

[00:14:21] and I remember when that news came out I remember exactly I was having noodles with my mom and my brother

[00:14:28] and my mom was talking about that because she was reading newspaper and she was like and she had made

[00:14:32] a comment she was like oh my god this is so gross and I was like and when I heard that

[00:14:40] or she I don't know if she said gross but she was like oh what a shock like oh my gosh like that so

[00:14:46] you regular or something like I just see it says a word I don't really know the direct translation

[00:14:52] but it's the word it was very negative and I felt absolutely terrified when I heard that

[00:14:59] because here I was saying oh wow like hey look there's somebody who's kind of sort of like feeling

[00:15:03] things that I feel but I feel them much more than she does because I never was really attracted to

[00:15:08] the guys so when I heard that I that that's where the shame like just you know I already felt

[00:15:14] something was weird but then now I heard it and from someone who who I really you know who was

[00:15:22] I wanted to be loved unconditionally and then I feared that if she found out I would lose that love

[00:15:30] and so there was that shame of like there's something wrong with me

[00:15:34] and of course you know being an Asian kid you're supposed to be good at math I self-demats already

[00:15:40] there I'll have shame about it wasn't like the right kind of Asian either

[00:15:44] so yeah it was just it was piled upon and and just I became super super um terrified and scared of any

[00:15:54] behaviors that would be seen as not feminine and and so I

[00:16:01] not I tried to really like over not over feminize I couldn't I never did anything too crazy but

[00:16:10] just in other areas I tried to be as good as possible you know I tried to be as quiet and I was like

[00:16:18] you know domesticated as possible I don't want to stand out on a cost trouble it was just and it

[00:16:24] it was because I was so ashamed of what was I was afraid to dress the way I wanted to dress

[00:16:29] I was afraid of walking the way I wanted to walk I remember being quite um picky about the way I walked

[00:16:36] because I walked to bulky I guess wow yeah but the words that I was saying I was so scared just

[00:16:44] everything I was just ashamed of everything that was me and it was it was just

[00:16:51] inauthentic it was absolutely inauthentic and I always had the fear I remember as a kid fear

[00:16:58] an anger was like the there they were primary emotions that I felt fear of being found out by

[00:17:04] anybody or fear of anybody seeing anything or making any comments about the way I dressed the way

[00:17:10] I spoke the way I looked whatever because I was trying so hard to look this part yeah and and play

[00:17:18] this part as best as I could and if anybody said anything it meant that I had failed it meant that

[00:17:24] they found me out and I was always so angry about what like because it's exhausting it's so

[00:17:30] exhausting right to play this part of you to to put and suppress this part of you that is so big

[00:17:38] and so I feel like you know a lot of my childhood a lot of my like that that those

[00:17:45] those great years of high school years I can't remember a lot of it I get it was so

[00:17:49] it was just so dark absolutely dark yeah yeah and you know it was hard so when I think is

[00:17:58] I maybe came to Japan out of desperation as well just just I needed to breathe I needed to get my

[00:18:04] head up for air you know to come up for air for a bit before I dove back down to like a live

[00:18:10] alive of live the heterosexual life did you feel that that was the only option living that

[00:18:17] heteronormative life I did I really did yeah I I didn't think you I never ever thought that I would

[00:18:24] ever be able to come out or to be with somebody that I truly wanted to be with there were no other

[00:18:32] options it's almost like I had a conversation with a friend who recently in the recent years

[00:18:39] discovered that she was bisexual and then I was like because I kind of knew myself quite early on

[00:18:45] so I don't really I never really was I never had a conversation with someone who came out quite

[00:18:49] later in life she was saying like the thing is I never knew as possible to have you know to be attracted

[00:18:56] to women and I was like I never knew as an option not to but but it felt kind of like that like but

[00:19:04] I felt like that when I was young I just thought there's you don't you don't realize what other

[00:19:10] options there are until you have the safe space to explore I'm gonna have that in place in America

[00:19:18] strangely I come to a very conservative conservative country and I just gotta say that it's

[00:19:25] it's not what I would have expected but what you were saying about you know going to a different

[00:19:29] country you knew no one it's kind of like starting from scratch rebuilding who you are or I imagine

[00:19:36] that's kind of what it was like yeah it was and so it's actually really nice like I I just felt

[00:19:42] like well I it's like a blank canvas and I have the ability to do whatever I want now and it's okay

[00:19:49] because and and I think that's the other thing I only had at first I was just like I promised my mom

[00:19:55] I'll be back in two years just give me two years right I was like it's two years who the heck what

[00:19:59] I can do whatever no one's gonna remember me anyways so well now now like like I've been here

[00:20:05] for a long time so I have to be careful but that was like when I knew there was a quote-unquote

[00:20:12] timeline and then I was like what what what is there to lose and that's kind of the mindset that

[00:20:19] I had that has been helping me throughout my whole life whenever I'm scared to do something is

[00:20:25] what is there to lose you I mean it's yeah you only live once right but really what is there

[00:20:31] to lose nothing like it's so much worse in your mind we have or at least I do I catastrophize

[00:20:39] so well yeah but then that holds you back from living the life that you really want so now I'm just

[00:20:47] like every time something scares me I'm just like well let's just go just do it who knows

[00:20:52] your things are always better than however you think they will always be better than what you think

[00:20:58] yeah I definitely jump to the worst possible scenario when I'm scared of something it's like

[00:21:07] end of the world like what if this happens exactly and you step back and you're like really

[00:21:12] yeah is that likely and actually even if things did go wrong okay well what would you do it's like

[00:21:18] well I could go back and I'd be all right I could do this yeah usually it's gonna be okay

[00:21:24] we're very good at talking ourselves out of things that actually make us really have a lot more

[00:21:29] resourceful than we actually think and there's people in our lives that are here to help as well

[00:21:34] you just need to speak up and ask that's something that was quite difficult as well because even you know

[00:21:40] we grew up a little bit distrusting sometimes yeah so I assume you've been back to the US to visit

[00:21:49] family since you've been in Japan what has that been like you know when when you hadn't been in

[00:21:56] Japan too long the first visit back home what was that like because I imagine you'd become a

[00:22:02] bit of a different person yeah um I was a lot more confident actually surprisingly I remember the

[00:22:10] first time I went back I had chopped my hair off and I yeah and just that that act of cutting my hair

[00:22:19] was almost like a coming out in a way for me I've always had really actually surprising I have

[00:22:25] always had really long hair and my mom actually um she never let me cut my hair but I was like you

[00:22:32] can't control me now I'm 1000 miles away so I came back a little bit more confident in myself because

[00:22:40] in a way I think Japan helps also because I'm an English speaker Japan really likes English and

[00:22:46] they're like oh my god wow and I'm like oh my gosh okay this is like it's so so normal for me

[00:22:52] this is the only language I mean this is the only language that I could speak very well actually

[00:22:56] surprising I lost all my Chinese so that kind of made me feel like okay there's there's something

[00:23:01] that people like about me here and that started to help me see myself in a different light because I

[00:23:07] was always very down on myself I really I was the master of self-depression not not in my

[00:23:13] identification I mean you know that came back a little more confident of who I was but there was

[00:23:18] still I I was still not out the first year or two when I was in Japan but I was starting to

[00:23:25] explored a little more I had actually had my first same-sex relationship around that time

[00:23:31] so I knew kind of like okay all right like I've tried it out now I'm kind of gay but okay

[00:23:38] I explored it and now that I've actually explored it instead of just thought about it in America

[00:23:42] because I've never dated anybody in America I was getting a little more acquainted with myself

[00:23:48] coming back to America I was still but it was funny because when I I know in that sense I

[00:23:57] shrank again when I came here right because of the memories I had because I still was I came back

[00:24:04] maybe I think the first year is it the first or the second year but I hadn't expanded enough

[00:24:10] out in Japan and felt comfortable in my expansion before I went back when so when I went back

[00:24:16] I kind of oh this is who I was I still have these are still memories of people

[00:24:22] the people who have ideas of who I was and my friends they still have an image of me that was so

[00:24:27] quite close to not that much time has passed yet so go back to what they remember except with

[00:24:35] the short hair which they started questioning and I was like okay yeah and I kind of would tell

[00:24:40] them like a little bit about my life in Japan and that relationship that I had was a part of the

[00:24:44] life that I had in Japan so there was a little bit more expansion than from what I used to be but

[00:24:50] I did feel I did go back subconsciously yeah and then when I came back I was like oh yeah so what's

[00:24:59] it like now when you go back home the most recent time I went back it was absolutely amazing I've never

[00:25:07] had such a great trip back and I think it's all like it's all the work that I've done I've done a

[00:25:14] lot of inner work at the last year a lot of shadow work and coming really truly to accepting all

[00:25:21] those really you know working through those little negative parts that I really still didn't like

[00:25:25] and understanding a lot of traumas that I working through all the traumas that I had I went back

[00:25:30] and I was completely transformed in a way like I felt like this is truly who I am this is who I

[00:25:39] worked so hard on making an understanding myself and I went back there was no expansion there was no

[00:25:46] whatever the of what I'm expecting and I was comfortable because I was like wow this is me

[00:25:55] and what's even amazing is also America has changed a lot and since since before like since a while

[00:26:03] I've come out to my family my mother is very you know she's accepting of me my brother knows everybody

[00:26:09] knows I am who I am and I come out here I go out there and I just experienced the world as I

[00:26:17] experienced America as who I truly am and it was just it was wonderful I'm you know the lady

[00:26:24] who I was on the airplane with we chatted the whole entire flight it's like 12 13 hour flight she's

[00:26:28] in the LGBT community and I was like wow what what are the what are the what are the chances yeah

[00:26:33] and I'm just like let me let me let me just tell everybody like let's talk I want to talk I want to

[00:26:37] know I want to be I want to show you who I am I want you to show who you are that would never have

[00:26:45] happened in the state no that would have never happened when I was a kid when I was a kid it was like

[00:26:51] don't ask me anything about myself I'm not gonna ask you anything so you don't ask me anything

[00:26:55] I don't really want to know you because I'm scared that you'll want to know me and I'm scared of letting

[00:26:59] you know who I am but I went back and I was like here I am exactly like this is it like what do you

[00:27:06] want yeah it was liberating there we go that's the word absolutely liberating

[00:27:13] so I've got I got to ask the stereotypical stereotypical question

[00:27:19] like what's your coming out story I feel like this this question makes me roll my eyes a little

[00:27:25] bit I don't know if you would agree but I feel like there's not just one coming out there's this

[00:27:30] ongoing thing right but talk me through it like when did you come out to your family was it different

[00:27:38] to when you came out to friends or was it just kind of you didn't say anything and they figured it out

[00:27:43] yeah I mean I've wow I think I did my first coming out to a friend when I was in high school

[00:27:51] um it was or it was kind of an like like I spoke out loud for the first time and I'm a big believer

[00:28:00] of once you say it out it becomes true and so for the longest time I didn't want to say anything to

[00:28:05] anybody I had a best friend in high school and I actually had a crush on her but I was also like

[00:28:12] she was the only person I really that kind of told stuff to like just all my all my other stuff

[00:28:16] besides being gay but I remember just I I told her one day like I think I might be attracted to girls

[00:28:25] and she gave me this look and I will never forget the look and it scared me because it wasn't a very

[00:28:29] accepting look it was kind of like are you sure like really oh but nobody else is like and then I

[00:28:36] remember the next day go in a school really early and finding her and she was talking to a boyfriend

[00:28:39] I was like I need to talk to you right now and she's like what is that I was like you know what I said

[00:28:42] yesterday I don't think it's true it was just it was just I don't know it was a fluke like I just

[00:28:48] and I remember just retracting everything I said and it felt so uncomfortable and I was just

[00:28:53] like okay why I tried it out and the the reaction I got was not good so let me go back in

[00:28:57] that was my first coming up to a friend after that it's been it's been a little bit better because I

[00:29:02] was a little bit more careful with the people I came out to I came out the next person I think I

[00:29:08] came out to was to a gay guy that I met in university who was so flamboyant in gay and like the

[00:29:15] moment I was like oh my god hey I think we're like yeah I think yeah I think we know a lot of

[00:29:20] like gay vibes are like really have help like having somebody in the community who's already very

[00:29:26] like open to himself that was that and then that he helped me really navigate how to like you know

[00:29:31] his friends and how to navigate coming out to friends I came out to my mom actually when I was

[00:29:38] in Japan I was dating the the second person the somebody who I I felt absolutely in love with

[00:29:44] like the first love kind of situation I heard a wedding bells and every day I applied my whole life

[00:29:49] with this person um and it was through Skype because I was terribly to my mother in person I never

[00:29:57] thought I would ever come out to her like you know the story about like just going back and being

[00:30:02] straight I never ever ever ever ever planned on coming out to her I just thought you know I was

[00:30:07] with this person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with this person I don't know how that's

[00:30:11] ever gonna pan out if I never came out to her but I'll figure out a way eventually and I thought maybe

[00:30:17] maybe we'll just maybe we'll just be together once you know all our parents passed away like that

[00:30:21] was kind of the thought that I'm like oh yeah I was saying anything um but I was I was not close my mom

[00:30:27] and we had always we always kept the element touch with each other I'm through Skype

[00:30:32] and um just one day she she was a little bit irritated because I was always at her house

[00:30:39] and always with her family and she was kind of like like are you why are you always there and I'm

[00:30:45] like oh well you know we're just really close and she's like are you like dating her like just that's

[00:30:50] kind of like a a comment a little joke so when she when she asked that like as a joke I just

[00:30:56] started sobbing and my mom freaked out she said what's wrong with me and I just I couldn't say

[00:31:01] anything I just shook my I just nodded my head and then she's like what and I was like yes I'm

[00:31:08] dating her and she's like and it's just like an explosion of like emotions for both of our sides

[00:31:14] and it was it was chaotic or well and I was just you know for I never talk back to my mother

[00:31:19] because that's a good daughter you're not supposed to talk back to your parents but that was the

[00:31:23] first time ever I really really like kind of talk back to her I was like I'm happy and and she's

[00:31:29] like you don't look happy because I'm like balling like it's not everyone's horrible you don't look

[00:31:34] happy but I was like you I'm not happy because of the way that you're reacting right now because

[00:31:40] this is something I wanted to share with you I wanted to I just felt like you know I feel so

[00:31:45] unexpected blah blah blah blah it was a huge argument and we lost contact for about a year or two

[00:31:51] like it was just yeah I call her every once in a while and and we I tried to like talk and then

[00:31:58] it was always end up in tears and somebody screaming um so yeah I lost contact with my mom for a while

[00:32:06] and I was just like well I guess this is I don't know like I mean my family is my mom my brother

[00:32:14] and my sister and and you know we're this little small unit and and my mom was somebody who

[00:32:20] who I really hung on to like I really respected I really loved and when I thought I lost that

[00:32:26] contact there's horrible it's really really difficult for me but I would also say like I don't think

[00:32:30] I can go back living a life that is not me I don't feel comfortable anymore once I came out

[00:32:35] I can't go again like I really just don't feel comfortable I'm surprisingly after uh the

[00:32:41] silence she she called me one day and she's like I'm sorry and and I was and and I got really

[00:32:51] I was just like well about what and she's like I'm sorry it took me so long

[00:32:56] but it was a shock when you told me and I I needed time to get used to everything and my time

[00:33:01] was really off she's going through a health scare and so I just kind of did not take into consideration

[00:33:06] her situation but she said like you know I'm sorry it just really took time she's like I also

[00:33:12] didn't know how to deal with it because I don't know of course the misrepresentation or the

[00:33:18] lack of representation so I don't know how I didn't know how to react they didn't know how

[00:33:23] to deal with this but you know what as long as you are happy that's all I truly want

[00:33:28] and I was scared because I don't know what the future would look like for you I can't help you

[00:33:35] I don't know I can't protect you and I'm like I you know and and you know I there's a part of me

[00:33:40] I says I don't need protection but at the same time I was like for you to say that like it was

[00:33:44] it was so so beautiful I felt finally like she was saying me as who I was and the relationship

[00:33:56] I have with her now is better than anything I've ever had with her I mean I've always been

[00:34:03] the good kid but I never told her anything and she finally like we talked a lot and she's like

[00:34:10] I finally realized why you never told me anything about yourself like even when we argued she's

[00:34:17] like you never talked back to me and I was like I'm just I'm a first of all I'm terrified of you

[00:34:21] but I'm but I was just scared of whatever I said if if anything I said would give you any sense of

[00:34:28] any hint that I was fortunate from what you expected and now I can talk to her about anything

[00:34:35] and in our relationships it's very very good now so that was my coming out it was it was very

[00:34:41] it was very dramatic yeah and it's so different for everybody I think it's a really personal journey

[00:34:51] it sort of makes me think of my coming out journey I who do I realize much later yeah it's

[00:34:59] fun right talking to people you're like oh tell me yours yeah I I realized my sexuality later in

[00:35:05] life so I was in my how old was I oh um I think was I 20 yet I don't know anyway 1920 round actually it

[00:35:18] might have been a bit after around 20 and I told one friend he was bisexual so I felt safe and I'm

[00:35:26] like but I still didn't fully commit to it I'm like I'm 90% sure that I'm gay that's what I said to

[00:35:34] and then I just kind of didn't talk to anyone about it for years

[00:35:39] and then I started my career as a teacher in a small town small town right couple of

[00:35:46] thousand people but what do you know two teachers they're a lesbians and they're a couple

[00:35:52] and you know as soon as I saw them I just knew right I was like oh this is exciting like I

[00:35:58] just got really excited and one of them dressed like me and I was like oh my god you know this

[00:36:04] is really cool and I became really close friends with them and one night we were out somewhere

[00:36:10] I think we were at a pub or something it was one of their birthdays and of course they had lots

[00:36:15] of people in the lots of friends in the queer community so I'm surrounded by these people are

[00:36:20] really confident in their sexuality I still hadn't come out but these my teacher friends had

[00:36:26] suspected for a while right and oh how did it happen one of their friends at the table

[00:36:35] said to me oh which side of the girlfriend boyfriend fence do you sit and I'm a really bad liar

[00:36:44] and I just went oh the girlfriend's side and I'm like bright red and they would just like yeah whatever

[00:36:50] no big deal cool and I'm freaking out this whole table of people maybe 20 people who most of them

[00:36:56] I didn't know they knew and my my mom didn't know my dad wasn't alive at the time but my mom

[00:37:03] who was very close with she didn't know and I just got sick at the thought of it not to my stomach

[00:37:09] and so I think maybe a couple of weeks had passed and I'm like I need to tell my mom

[00:37:15] and I need to tell her in person so I chucked a sickie at work I flew down to see mom

[00:37:22] for a few days and my sister who's 10 years younger and I said let's go for a walk

[00:37:29] I'm like how am I going to tell them I don't want to look them in the eye

[00:37:32] so we're walking and this walk went on and on it was probably more than an hour and I'm like okay

[00:37:38] come on you can do it and I see this rainbow I'm like oh fuck the universe is telling me like come

[00:37:45] on get on with it there's a fucking rainbow anyway so I stop walking I grabbed my mom in my sister

[00:37:52] by the hands I'm getting teary I'm like I have something to tell you and they're getting worried

[00:37:57] for it why are you stopping why are you crying like are you sick and I just said I'm gay and I'm

[00:38:02] burst into tears and my sister just clung on to me gaining the biggest hug I felt so accepted

[00:38:08] and mom was just standing there frozen and she said oh well that's personal that's your choice

[00:38:18] and I thought oh shit I shouldn't have told her like oh my god I just felt you know she wasn't

[00:38:25] mean but the words felt so cold I'm like number one it's not a choice and okay it's kind of

[00:38:34] personal but you're someone who is really important to me and I wanted to share something that

[00:38:39] is a big part of me so I felt pretty rejected and mum and I you know we'd talk regularly

[00:38:48] but it was the topic we never spoke about it was just like the elephant in the room

[00:38:52] hmm because I feel like once you tell someone you expect to be able to talk about these

[00:38:57] things well that's what I thought and then I got my first girlfriend and I'm like I have to

[00:39:04] tell mom like that we just had such a strong connection even though she clearly hadn't come to terms

[00:39:11] yet with my sexuality and like I have to tell mom I don't want to be a liar and she just sort of

[00:39:17] went oh yeah okay and then again my girlfriend became the elephant in the room like I was with this

[00:39:24] I was with you know the my girlfriend for eight years and for the first couple of years yeah

[00:39:32] just never asked how are you two doing or how so and so and when I said mom what the fuck

[00:39:38] what is going on I'm like I see a future with this woman and I love you but if you can't accept who I

[00:39:46] am and accept her into your life then we've got a problem like you need to make a choice

[00:39:53] and you know I don't I can't remember I got a reply from her but I called her up and I said look

[00:40:01] I actually don't know how you feel about this whole situation you haven't said anything

[00:40:07] and it was our first open conversation she's like well I've thought about how I won't be a grandma

[00:40:16] and that makes me really sad and it just hit me in the heart and I like I thought wow she's

[00:40:23] actually being honest I would much rather that than the cold coldness should be giving me and then

[00:40:28] I said well you know I can still have kids it's a bit more difficult but you might be a grandma one day

[00:40:33] so that kind of started the open dialogue and it took time and she met my girlfriend for

[00:40:41] the first time and it wasn't too horrible I thought it should be absolutely a meaning but she was

[00:40:47] actually really nice and full acceptance came because my mum's not alive anymore but when she was

[00:40:56] very sick and dying my wish we're not together anymore but my fiance at the time was with me

[00:41:05] and one of the nurses was in the room because of where we're in palliative care mums in the bed

[00:41:11] it's me and my fiance and one of the nurses said oh is that your sister which don't get me started

[00:41:19] anyway my mum said no that's my daughter-in-law and I just went oh my god like it's made me

[00:41:27] theory thinking about it was like wow she fully accepts like I just felt so loved and so accepted

[00:41:34] and it's amazing how much of an impact it has to feel fully accepted it is so validating

[00:41:44] and as much as we say that we shouldn't put our self-worth or so much important in importance in

[00:41:50] what others think it kind of it does matter to me so it matters especially from the people who

[00:41:58] we like our family I think that's one like I've always that's one I feel like you know

[00:42:04] that's the exception to the rule yeah it's a tricky one and I really I empathize with people who

[00:42:16] you know haven't been able to get to that stage with their family you know for some people

[00:42:21] unfortunately they aren't accepted by their family and that that just breaks my heart

[00:42:29] and I wish everybody could get that acceptance but it's just not it's not the truth for some people

[00:42:36] yeah it's it's really really hard to you know in that sense like I guess you and I have been lucky

[00:42:46] to have people who accept us when I see a lot of you know our brothers and sisters in that

[00:42:54] sense like who don't have that it's then I'm like you know what let me be I know I'm not a replacement

[00:43:02] but let me be the person who evaluates your experience and you as who you are because you need

[00:43:09] not you need but like I want to give that to you it's just it's it gives you such a

[00:43:16] it really changes a lot I think like when one my mother accepted and when my family was very accepting

[00:43:22] it just completely changed this dialogue that I had within myself about who I was as well

[00:43:29] yeah yeah definitely lots of your beautiful we thank you so much for sharing that

[00:43:35] it's nice to share I feel like it's not something I get to talk about often

[00:43:40] you know a lot of my friends are straight it's it's a different they can never understand what

[00:43:45] that's like you found other like gay person about it like oh okay this instant connection yeah

[00:43:55] but I factor what I was saying before and you're coming out story there was more than one right

[00:44:01] it wasn't just oh this big event everybody knew I'm cool everything's fine

[00:44:06] like it's it's constant and in many circumstances I'm not transparent with who I am because I

[00:44:13] don't feel safe or I'm unsure how people are going to react yeah and that's I guess that's part of our

[00:44:20] existence now you know it's it isn't safe in all context to be yeah fully transparent that's true

[00:44:27] it is a little bit scary or I think in that sense like Japan they're they're quite

[00:44:32] right like it I came to a place it exactly the way that you know it's surprising how how open I am here

[00:44:38] it's just the same as in the states it's there's no representation really and you know speaking

[00:44:44] of people who who are not able to to come out it's it's constant I I've met more closed

[00:44:51] closeted people here than I have open people um right and it's sad uh yeah but

[00:45:00] I mean in a sense I'm safer I feel safer here I don't think I would be as as open as I am

[00:45:08] here than I would be in the states actually and surprising yeah just because I don't know like it's

[00:45:13] it's accepting in the states like we have the dialogues open like you see it more um you see

[00:45:18] marriages okay you see people holding hand and stuff but at the same time I'm I'm still a little

[00:45:22] bit scared because people react white in the states maybe the worst that would be little stairs and

[00:45:30] be like and then you know they don't say anything they don't do anything so I don't

[00:45:37] right right at least not your face right so here I think um I feel a little I understand like

[00:45:43] sometimes it's it's we have to be safe and that's it sucks that we have to think that extra

[00:45:49] that's an extra thing but that we have to think about but people in the queer community were used to

[00:45:53] it was right and I think that community piece is so important you know it's almost like

[00:46:02] choosing your family you know you're choosing the people to be around and that it's safe

[00:46:07] to actually be yourself because I think it's really important to try and find that space yeah absolutely

[00:46:13] huge change it's a very big change I think um I recently moved actually and um I've lived

[00:46:21] for 10 years in the west of Japan and my community is there my friends are there my support group

[00:46:26] is there I moved to the east of Japan so near Tokyo now and I'm I'm looking for my new community

[00:46:33] and it's it's I feel the difference when there's not when I don't have that community it's a little bit

[00:46:43] enough scary um but it makes a difference and even though I have like one like the one or two people

[00:46:49] that I found here I'm like oh my god you're just calling it to them your friends like you you

[00:46:55] understand me and it's a difference between like it's not saying that I don't have friends but like

[00:47:00] there's a difference with like you know straight friends and who people who are in my you know

[00:47:05] in the LGBTQ group then it's like you understand I don't even need like it's kind of like that

[00:47:10] coming out story that we just had like there's a there's something that binds us in a way

[00:47:16] like your experience is definitely different from my experience but there is that like when

[00:47:20] when we're here every time I hear like a coming out story there's a part of my heart that I'm like

[00:47:25] oh it rings so true and it's so close and I'm just like I just want to

[00:47:30] like embrace you

[00:47:34] yeah I don't know I don't feel that really with with my straighter friends it's my straight

[00:47:39] friends it's just like it's a good way for them and they're like oh yeah it's like

[00:47:44] how did you come out and tell everybody you had a boyfriend yeah yeah so

[00:47:49] yeah it makes me think I um oh maybe a year ago 18 months ago I made some friends with

[00:47:58] neighbors where I was living at the time um lesbian couple they were just awesome and we both had

[00:48:04] a puppy at the time similar age and you know we became friends and you know they were great

[00:48:10] and my partner at the time was stalking them on Instagram as you do yeah and she's like Rosie come

[00:48:17] here I'm like watch what's wrong just like I think someone so is transgender

[00:48:24] and I went oh like I was like why why why like are you concerned about this

[00:48:30] and I think she was just like whoa I've met one in the wild kind of thing which is awful like but

[00:48:38] I kind of get it anyway I decided to stalk on the Instagram and

[00:48:42] and she had shared her transitioning journey on Instagram it was amazing you know since she started

[00:48:52] um hormone therapy and it was just it brought me to tears and I said to my partner I need to

[00:48:57] say something and she said you can't do that like not and I said no that's a pro we can't it's

[00:49:02] not hush hush like no I wanted to say something and I sent a message and said I just want to say

[00:49:09] I think you're awesome and the fact you're showing it online is amazing and just thank you

[00:49:16] for being so open about her and she was like I don't have words but thank you

[00:49:22] yeah it was just it was a really cool experience I just felt oh wow how you know it's brave

[00:49:29] and it's courageous to come out and to be so open about it is to me it's just like wow I wish

[00:49:37] I was that brave kind of thing it's this it's big scary thing it's still kind of is for me sometimes

[00:49:45] coming out to people yeah yeah rather not it's just I don't want to go there it's you

[00:49:50] it's sometimes we we you pick and choose like again like no you don't know how people react

[00:49:57] and sometimes it's it's not worth like the hassle yeah yeah whatever you can think what do you

[00:50:04] you know get quite I'll go to the shop and they go oh yeah you're getting that far hubby yeah

[00:50:07] and I'll just go oh no yeah yeah yeah like sure yeah whatever like let's end this conversation

[00:50:14] I don't want to have to explain myself yeah you know you don't we don't need to explain

[00:50:18] ourselves to anybody that we don't want to do I mean you know it's it's it's a privilege to know us

[00:50:24] yeah so for who we are so it's okay yeah yeah I think so and I think

[00:50:32] we deserve to have the right to pick and choose who we share that with oh goodness yeah

[00:50:38] I think it's an absolute and it's okay I think this is like a random but I yeah sometimes people

[00:50:46] expect a lot from you then they're like well now share all your story I'm like no

[00:50:51] what do I feel like you're not somebody I feel very comfortable sharing everything too

[00:50:55] but they're like well you're out then you you share right you you put on Instagram I'm like yes

[00:51:00] but that is the part that I choose to share and that's what you get like whoa

[00:51:07] I don't need to tell you exactly like what my relationships are like right now and I'm like

[00:51:10] they're they're my business right there it's just it's me and the other person as well so yeah

[00:51:15] go down yeah and there's some really intimate questions that come out that I don't think

[00:51:20] people would ever ask who was straight person yeah like oh how do two girls have sex oh when was

[00:51:26] your first time oh whatever you had sex with the man oh how do you know you know excuse me

[00:51:31] I'm like again picking choose who you want to say I do right but sometimes I'm like

[00:51:37] what a lot of questions to ask them are who you've just like kind of met right boundaries

[00:51:43] right yes exactly exactly let's I want to jump now like this this conversation has been

[00:51:48] awesome but let's talk about because you're an empowerment and joy coach how did you get to that

[00:51:56] because obviously you weren't always a coach so what happened yeah well I got into coaching

[00:52:01] because of the relationship that I was in the previous it was a six year relationship it was quite

[00:52:05] the chaotic relationship and part of learning how to accept my partner was it was part of accepting

[00:52:11] myself I did not accept myself I was so you know I realized a lot of the stuff that was going on

[00:52:17] was a lot of projection that I was projecting to where things that I did like about myself

[00:52:22] I had gotten we got to a really horrible point in our relationship and I was like what the heck am I

[00:52:26] doing here I you know the the relationship itself took yours is it was tough and I was also in a

[00:52:35] very bad space I checked myself into a what they call a mental clinic here it sounds really bad

[00:52:40] resist therapy they started giving me pills because that's how they deal with mental issues in

[00:52:45] Japan which I'm not a very big fan of they gave me pills and I'm like that's not that's not what

[00:52:50] would help me actually um and then so uh I got I started doing counseling yeah within an English speaker

[00:53:00] and she was just telling me about um well we were working through mindset and like mindfulness

[00:53:05] and things like that and anger management I had a lot of anger but it was just a lot of relate to

[00:53:11] right it's a it's a lot of childhood trauma and things that don't get released so we built up

[00:53:17] into this all kind of adoption um and she you know on our last session she's like have you ever

[00:53:24] thought about coaching you know I was like what's that and then so that was my introduction to coaching

[00:53:28] because all I ever knew was therapy and I was like okay let me check this out and yeah that was

[00:53:33] my introduction to coaching I found Jay Shetty beautiful eyes very good to invite right

[00:53:37] so yeah and for us to have yes and um yeah he's let me watch you

[00:53:43] it learning it like seeing another different side of how to think was a big how to huge impact

[00:53:51] and that you know applying a lot of the things that I learned from those those videos that I watched

[00:53:56] and things like that really helped in my relationship was like this shit's real like this shit's

[00:54:00] good it works it's my relationship but like much much better um from then and um in the in terms

[00:54:08] of like communication and being able to you know listen and just accept things as they are yeah so

[00:54:17] I was like this is really really good like this is how do how do people like survive not knowing

[00:54:22] this stuff like I don't know how I ever lived without knowing all things that I know now

[00:54:27] and so I got really interested in coaching and so I decided yeah let's let's do this I want to

[00:54:31] learn more and so I got certified I was certified professional coach now and then the empowerment

[00:54:37] the joy part was just like what was important to me in my life was just I wanted somebody

[00:54:43] to encourage me to be who I am and to find joy in life because I lived you know it was it was

[00:54:49] darkness for such a long time I did not know joy for a long time and I didn't allow myself to know joy

[00:54:55] we live in that culture especially living in Japan like it's hustle hustle hustle let's go go go it's

[00:55:00] never like it's nothing about joy and I think being here has helped me really see what it is

[00:55:07] that I really need and it's it's joy for me joy is a huge value and I love having fun

[00:55:14] and and bringing joy to people's lives and and having joy we super like it's a reciprocated thing

[00:55:20] I mean you bring joy you give joy you take it give and take kind of situation and

[00:55:24] joy makes the world go round and round and it's it's a lot of also coming to yourself like me being

[00:55:32] more and more open to who I was being more accepting of who I was and having fun with who I am just

[00:55:40] that in itself was transformative for me so I'm like listening to a lot of the people who I

[00:55:47] come in contact with I'm also a teacher I teach English in Japan and so a lot of the people I listen

[00:55:53] to I hear their life story through our lessons and I'm like you you need more joy in your life

[00:56:00] and and and it's not like going on having fun but you need to I feel like a lot of us don't know how

[00:56:07] to have fun being who we are and a lot of people have not explored what that looks like and

[00:56:14] there's just we're so caught up you know especially in the in this day and age it's it's so much

[00:56:23] you gotta go to the right school you have to get a right job you have to marry the right person

[00:56:26] you have to have this much money you have to buy this kind of house so much expectation

[00:56:30] and we don't have time to be with ourselves and no do we really truly want this because that was

[00:56:37] my life you know I just I just lived the life that people told me it's the straight the straight

[00:56:42] life you know we're supposed to have this many kids and blah blah blah like we never questioned

[00:56:47] it but the moment you sit down and you have that quiet moment with yourself and you think do I truly

[00:56:53] want this a lot of times it's shocks you know it shocked me when I realized I don't want it

[00:56:58] and I think it comes to a shock as for many people when they realize I don't I don't truly

[00:57:04] want to work or I want to work I don't truly want to like be married to this person I

[00:57:08] was like that right because so many because I would have told me I had to get married you know we

[00:57:12] have that timeline especially as women yeah you know by this time you should be married you should have

[00:57:17] this many kids you should have this house you know and and for a long time I felt as I was living

[00:57:23] here longer and I was not living the I was I'm looking at my friends I don't have the typical

[00:57:28] life that they have they're getting married they're buying their first house they're having their

[00:57:31] first kids and blah blah and I'm like I'm very gay it doesn't look exactly like that and there

[00:57:39] was a fear I was like wait am I doing something again that old feeling of like am I doing something

[00:57:44] wrong or something wrong with me but I'm like no I'm living I'm living my life the way that I want to

[00:57:50] live you know I'm here I'm having fun and this is what I feel is joyful and I don't even

[00:57:58] remember myself because I used to compare myself a lot oh yeah we have a lot of that issue

[00:58:05] yeah and and just empowering yourself and letting yourself know that the way that you want to

[00:58:10] live your life the way that you experience your life that is completely fine it just be happy

[00:58:15] life that you chose because it's you really just have one life and what's the point if you're on

[00:58:21] your death but any new thing back and you're like crap I shouldn't have done this this is it that how

[00:58:24] I'm working hard yeah you can't live for other people I think we we deserve to live a joyful life

[00:58:34] yes and a life that we want but I think a lot of listeners of this podcast because it's called

[00:58:40] the pursuit of freedom so a lot of listeners are at that point they know they want to change in

[00:58:46] life but they can't even articulate what change they want or what is even wrong but they just

[00:58:54] got this feeling yeah what this is something I've been through but what would you say to those people

[00:59:01] because it can be pretty overwhelming and feel pretty lonely yeah first of all you're not alone

[00:59:08] and you're you're absolutely not alone and it's you know to have that awareness is it's a first step

[00:59:16] it's not even like what exactly is wrong but that kind of weird feeling that you have that kind

[00:59:21] of uncomfortable feeling that you feel when you wake up and you're like this split second of like

[00:59:26] this is not this is something that in itself is already really really powerful

[00:59:33] and you're not alone and it's okay it's okay to have that feeling it's okay to feel like

[00:59:38] something's off sometimes it really is something that you would want to change sometimes it's not

[00:59:43] it's okay you don't need to change right now you don't want to change if you don't want to change

[00:59:50] but let's explore let's just think of possibilities you know if you were to yeah we do a

[00:59:56] visioning exercise like you know close your eyes and imagine if you were living the life that you

[01:00:01] wanted no strings attack nothing like don't think anything of what's realistic or not okay yeah

[01:00:07] with zillion dollars right now or like whatever you're you're living the life that you want what kind

[01:00:11] of feelings you want what do you see what do you smell what do you feel what you touch what you hear

[01:00:17] imagine that and then all right put that on to what you have now what's what changed what was

[01:00:24] that thing and from there we can explore that word explore is key we need to lead with curiosity

[01:00:32] just playing a little yeah let's figure it out you're not gonna know what you want straight away

[01:00:38] and it it's gonna change and that's fine yeah that's who we are as people things are gonna change but

[01:00:45] it's worth exploring yeah okay what could life be like exactly exactly and then okay what could I

[01:00:52] do to get a little bit closer to that but it is the scary time it is and it's but to know

[01:01:00] that you're not alone to know that they're you know yeah if you have a coach the other coaches

[01:01:04] with you you have friends you have people in your side by your side you it's it's scary when

[01:01:11] you have to do things alone but you're not yeah I don't do it alone for someone like me I can

[01:01:17] really stop it like I'm independent I can do this myself but I no one's no question asking for help

[01:01:28] or letting other people in isn't a weakness and I've really come to learn the power of community

[01:01:34] it's something I'm so passionate about and you know probably by the time this episode goes live

[01:01:41] it'll be launched but I'm setting up a community for women who are wanting change because let's

[01:01:48] not do this alone that's better together seriously and I remember you telling me when we first spoke

[01:01:56] and I hope you don't mind me saying this but you were saying it was a goal to of yours to

[01:02:00] launch a podcast with the LGBT community which I think is awesome is that still something you want

[01:02:07] to do yes absolutely I'm just I'm getting all my stuff ready I'm excited oh my gosh I forgot

[01:02:15] that I told you yeah I got the cat set up I love it yes yes it's up yeah but I love that you're

[01:02:22] doing that and I would oh my gosh I'm excited that you're you're you're creating a community yes

[01:02:27] do it we right we have to yeah we do and this podcast in itself is a community but I think

[01:02:35] you know the thing with the podcast is sometimes it's very it can be one way like obviously I've

[01:02:40] got a connection with you and you with me now but the listeners I don't get to hear the impact

[01:02:46] it's having on them sometimes I do sometimes I got messages but I want to be more connected

[01:02:53] and that's why I'm starting an online community where we can just chat about whatever right there's

[01:02:58] no expectations so yeah I can't wait for your community your podcast and to launch yeah thank you

[01:03:09] like let's let's keep this going right I'm onto you it took me years to get off my button do

[01:03:19] this podcast and then I just started and it just was like oh why did I take so long that's kind

[01:03:25] of the thing though with with you know with everything we we we we talk ourselves out we talk

[01:03:30] ourselves out when we do it we're like oh my god but it happened when it had to happen and yeah

[01:03:38] and it was it's fine the universe has our back they know we've manifested it it's a tell there

[01:03:44] right yeah yeah let's be kind to ourselves so what that it took five years like

[01:03:49] it's happening and making a huge impact I'm sure like wait gosh it's amazing and I'm just so happy

[01:03:56] like that you have this you've brought this out into the world this your your podcast project and now

[01:04:01] it's it's helping so many people I'm sure and even just meeting talk to you know like I

[01:04:06] I feel very like one of wonderful way to wake up in the morning oh good yeah I

[01:04:12] I'm I love these chats like it's honestly a big part of why I do the podcast is probably pretty

[01:04:18] selfish I just love it I love hearing these stories it's um it's a privilege it really is and

[01:04:26] just my aim is to give people a voice I don't want to speak for other people I think it's important

[01:04:32] to just give people a platform to share their story on their terms thank you I am really happy

[01:04:38] thank you so much I think it's just wonderful you're doing now move I'm just thank you I'm excited

[01:04:43] for I'm really excited for a community oh cool well yeah it's happening you can hold me to

[01:04:49] wait a count I keep saying yeah it'll be launched and I am hedging I must say but if the community is

[01:04:57] not out by the time this episode goes out that's a problem I'll keep you in check yeah what's going on

[01:05:04] yeah better together definitely because you know yes we're strong independent people and we can

[01:05:11] go go very far by ourselves but why the company is nice and I can find on have fun on the way

[01:05:21] right it doesn't mean you can't have a bit of a loan time right but yeah yeah final question

[01:05:27] yes I like to ask everybody this question what does freedom mean to you

[01:05:34] freedom freedom means light I think and the image of just popped up in my mind was

[01:05:45] flight and in a way soaring beyond there's just empty skies being absolutely who you are without

[01:05:56] limits without limiting yourself your the sky's the limit I mean space now you know

[01:06:02] being absolutely who you are and having no constraints and nothing that holds you back nothing

[01:06:08] that the thoughts the beliefs the stories anything that you tell yourself those things are all gone

[01:06:13] just let yourself be we are that's that's what freedom is to me that's beautiful

[01:06:25] I don't think you're so much oh no don't ask me that no I love it I do love it when guests turn it on me

[01:06:32] I like to do it and I what I find interesting is the rare occasion where I am asked my answer

[01:06:40] it does change I'm sort of my concept of freedom is evolving and as I hear people's answers I'm like

[01:06:46] oh hadn't thought of it like that but I really like what you were saying about you know tapping

[01:06:54] into who you are I think that's a big part of it finding your truth has been a big thing for me

[01:07:00] you know I got a tattoo on my arm that says stay true because when I stray from who I am

[01:07:10] it's just that's when the problem starts coming up things don't end well for me and I start

[01:07:15] straying because I'm feeling these external pressures like this is what people expect from me and

[01:07:20] I can't do it that way because no one else is but stuff that you know um I I've really

[01:07:31] over the years I question more and more these so-called rules and the way things are done like who's

[01:07:37] belief is it that you have to get married by this age and have kids and buy a house and if

[01:07:42] you don't then you're a failure excuse me who's belief is that and we've just been conditioned to

[01:07:49] believe all these things but when you hang on is that my belief or is that someone else's

[01:07:56] you have to undo that and ask the question and who is that belief helping

[01:08:01] mm hmm not all been me so freedom to me is being able to

[01:08:08] live a life with joy and feel safe to be my true self that is utmost freedom I think they're

[01:08:19] two really important things for me what's life is not it's not I'm saying it's not enjoyable without

[01:08:28] joy well you know life is better when it's joyful I want to do things do the things I enjoy

[01:08:38] but together I have to be very conscious with my decisions so it's not just going to happen by accident

[01:08:47] oh wow that's not a very articulate answer but that is what I would say freedom is to me

[01:08:52] I love that thank you I was like I don't know what you think me

[01:09:02] I should put together a compilation of everybody's answers because it blows my mind how different

[01:09:08] the answers are it's such a big concept but also so personal to everybody like I should look up

[01:09:16] actually what the definition in the dictionary is because I'm sure it's nothing like what you when

[01:09:21] I said but it's fine it's we make it or we we make it right but that's the thing with life like

[01:09:26] we we make life there's so many different ways to live life so going back to kind of what you're

[01:09:31] saying like who's to say that this is one way and whatever we've nobody decided that we just all

[01:09:38] to kind of want along with it but now it's your turn to write your own rulebook write your own

[01:09:42] guidebook how to live life the rosy way yeah and I wouldn't want it to be any other way because there

[01:09:49] is no way not right it's no other way you're put on this planet to live this one life the way

[01:09:56] that you want it to live and no matter how up and like ups and downs and left and rights whatever

[01:10:02] does that's the way you were supposed to live it and no one else can tell you anything else

[01:10:08] yeah let's lean into that and one of the big foundations of this community I'm putting together is

[01:10:16] going again you know we all think we want one thing or we're told we should want one thing I

[01:10:27] should say but the community is about figuring out what the hell it is that you want yes not what

[01:10:34] you not what you think you want or what everybody's telling you you should want but what you actually want

[01:10:39] to do I love it oh my gosh yes it gets me fired yeah because I want to join that community sweet

[01:10:49] yep you're going to be the first member let's do it oh Jen this has been an absolute pleasure

[01:10:58] I've really enjoyed this conversation it's been so validating I just know our listeners are going

[01:11:07] to get a lot from this especially those in the LGBTQI plus community because our voices aren't always

[01:11:14] heard we're changing that we are yes and you're already you started so I'm very happy we've got you

[01:11:23] yeah and I'm coming in into the community you are and you're already you're already doing

[01:11:28] work as a coach which is changing lives and I think it's important to remember that

[01:11:33] even one person can make change so just that is that small drop in the ocean which is such a cliche

[01:11:40] right but it does have a ripple effect it does my conversation with you is going to affect someone

[01:11:46] who's listening and they might tell someone else and it's just going to keep growing from there so

[01:11:52] let's not lose hope people I love that beautiful oh thank you Jen thank you so much thank you thank you

[01:12:03] if this episode resonated with you at all could I please ask that you share it with a friend who

[01:12:08] you think could get value from it and whilst you're doing that make sure you follow and subscribe

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[01:12:25] things is going to help this podcast reach more people and impact more lives which is at the end

[01:12:32] of the day is what we're here to do thank you so much I appreciate you remember you matter

[01:12:39] you're worth it and you are so so capable take care of yourself and I'll see you next week